To squeeze or not to squeeze.

[S-04]

I made a stove-top partial mash stout yesterday. I used Beersmith for the first time, and the software says that I only got 56% efficiency. I've been using a nylon mesh bag for my grains, and I have not been squeezing the bag because I read that I would extract tannins if I did. Does anyone have any experience to share on this?

I mashed for 30 min. starting at 69c in 1.5qt/lb, then heated it back up and let it go another 30 min before sparging for 15min in 1.5qt/lb. I use an electric stove, so temp. control is a bit iffy.

Thanks!

[sleepyjamie]

Talk to rubbertoe

[sleepyjamie]

Talk to rubbertoe

[S-04]

Thanks Jamie, I'll PM him this evening.

[pet lion]

I squeeze. Haven't noticed any beers being having too much tannin.

[dean2k]

I Don't squeeze and get 75% and higher using full volume no spurge. But that's using a cooler mash run. I did have poor efficiency doing stove top mash

[dean2k]

Spurge? FU auto correct.

[RubberToe]

I made a stove-top partial mash stout yesterday. I used Beersmith for the first time, and the software says that I only got 56% efficiency. I've been using a nylon mesh bag for my grains, and I have not been squeezing the bag because I read that I would extract tannins if I did. Does anyone have any experience to share on this?

I mashed for 30 min. starting at 69c in 1.5qt/lb, then heated it back up and let it go another 30 min before sparging for 15min in 1.5qt/lb. I use an electric stove, so temp. control is a bit iffy.

As per my PM, squeeze that bitch. No tannins unless your mash pH is way off AND your temp is too high.

More factors to consider...

How big is your bag? Does it constrict your grain at all or is it plenty big, like enough to put your pot into it? If it's too small your eff will suffer.

Stir your mash well when you mash in. Clumps will mess you up.

Also, hitting your strike temp will do wonders.

How big is your kettle? Are you maxing it out when you mash?

Your crush. One of the biggest factors effecting efficiency. With BIAB you can get away with a finer crush. However, your bag will drain slower. If your supplier is crushing your grain then I guess you can't control this.

Mash time. Try mashing a bit longer. A lot of BIAB brewers will mash for 90 minutes and it does help with efficiency. It is true that most of the conversion is done in 5 - 15 minutes but depending on your crush starches can still be trapped in the grain chunks.

Read this:
Effects of mash parameters on fermentability and efficiency in single infusion mashing

-Rob

[GuingesRock]

I made a stove-top partial mash stout yesterday. I used Beersmith for the first time, and the software says that I only got 56% efficiency. I've been using a nylon mesh bag for my grains, and I have not been squeezing the bag because I read that I would extract tannins if I did. Does anyone have any experience to share on this?

I mashed for 30 min. starting at 69c in 1.5qt/lb, then heated it back up and let it go another 30 min before sparging for 15min in 1.5qt/lb. I use an electric stove, so temp. control is a bit iffy.

As per my PM, squeeze that bitch. No tannins unless your mash pH is way off AND your temp is too high.

More factors to consider...

How big is your bag? Does it constrict your grain at all or is it plenty big, like enough to put your pot into it? If it's too small your eff will suffer.

Stir your mash well when you mash in. Clumps will mess you up.

Also, hitting your strike temp will do wonders.

How big is your kettle? Are you maxing it out when you mash?

Your crush. One of the biggest factors effecting efficiency. With BIAB you can get away with a finer crush. However, your bag will drain slower. If your supplier is crushing your grain then I guess you can't control this.

Mash time. Try mashing a bit longer. A lot of BIAB brewers will mash for 90 minutes and it does help with efficiency. It is true that most of the conversion is done in 5 - 15 minutes but depending on your crush starches can still be trapped in the grain chunks.

Read this:
Effects of mash parameters on fermentability and efficiency in single infusion mashing

-Rob

From what I know and have read, I think that is spot on advice and an excellent comprehensive summary, especially about avoiding the tannin neurosis, unless you have overheated the mash at mashout to over 190F and forgot to stir at the same time as I did early one morning, half awake, after an overnight mash. I didn’t like the resulting beer and thought it was because of the cockup, so repeated the overnight mash brew perfectly and tasted exactly the same, so concluded it was the overnight mashing I didn’t like. The beer was too sweet. I thought maybe the beta gave up the ghost after an hour or so, and the alpha kept on making maltotriose. I might have started the mash too high for an overnight and started at 155F. I haven’t come across many people/posters who have done an overnight mash and liked the results. The reason I was doing an overnight mash was I was trying to develop an overnight mash hop process, as I thought it would make for a more effective mash hop because of the longer time the hops were stewed. I did get amazing hop flavours though. It was mash hopped only with no other hop additions. The experience was a bit like drinking maybe vodka and orange juice, or alchopop maybe, very fruity, very alcoholic but too damn sweet, some bitterness but not much for 1lb Styrian Goldings in a 10 gallon batch. The grain bill was half a sack of MO. Do you have any comments on that please?

I don’t pull the bag and don’t squeeze (too much trouble and more mess to clean up). I drain from ball valve into another pot, often with FWH hops in. I do let it drain for a while though. I no longer mash out. 77% according to BS on last brew.

[S-04]

Thanks Rob! When I was cleaning up after brewing, I squeezed out the bag before dumping my spent grain, and I really had a feeling that that should have gone into the beer. Next time...

How big is your kettle? Are you maxing it out when you mash?

Probably. It's a 16l kettle, and I had 8l of water and 5lb of grain. It was fairly full, and thick enough that if I hadn't been worried about my total boil volume, I would have added more water.

Also, hitting your strike temp will do wonders.

I heated the water to 74c, and after I added the grain I was at about 67c. I thought the hard part was heating it back up at 30 mins on an electric burner - even with lots of stirring, it got too hot on the bottom. I guess I should probably build a mash tun.

If your supplier is crushing your grain...

I'll try asking for a finer crush next time - Dave seems like a nice guy.

Would the fact that this mash included 3/5 roasted barley and flaked barley make it trickier than one that was all malt?

I'm thinking that over all the mash temp. must have been a bit low, as the wort seems very fermentable. It's already almost to Beersmith's predicted FG after ~40 hours.

[mr x]

You aren't going to get much bitterness without boiling the hops.

[GuingesRock]

You aren't going to get much bitterness without boiling the hops.

Oh I know that but thanks. I was testing the mash hop and I think the only way to test something is to do it in isolation otherwise you don't know what is doing what. When I first tried FWH, I did FWH only to see the results and FWH only is still one of my favorites.

[mr x]

You aren't going to get much bitterness without boiling the hops.

Oh I know that but thanks.

Do you have any comments on that please?

What were you looking for comments on?

[GuingesRock]

Oh yes, sorry, I should have been more specific. Not quite woken up yet. I would have liked the overnight mash to have worked for convenience and also the overnight mash hop idea for flavour and improved utilisation of hops in mash hopping which is normally not very good. I think I achieved amazing hop flavours and I can add hops to the boil for more bitterness. I gave up on the whole project, I believe because I failed on the overnight mash aspect and got poor results from that. What I wanted to know was did I go wrong with the overnight mash or are people universally disappointed with overnight mashing. Is there anyone who only does overnight mashing now and what are the secrets to your success. Where did I go wrong with my overnight mash. Thanks.

[RubberToe]

GuingesRock: Try an overnight mash without mash hopping to compare. Do some boil additions though. Also, I think your hunch that your strike temp could be too high may be correct. IIRC it takes only about 1 hour for alpha amylase to break down at 158F. If you mash too high your wort would be less fermentable and end up sweet. Keep in mind that you would have had no bitterness to balance it. There are fermentation factors that could lead to a high FG as well.

I've done overnight and other really long mashes with excellent results, as have others I know do I don't think that's the detail making things go sideways for you. Good luck!

[RubberToe]

How big is your kettle? Are you maxing it out when you mash?

Probably. It's a 16l kettle, and I had 8l of water and 5lb of grain. It was fairly full, and thick enough that if I hadn't been worried about my total boil volume, I would have added more water.

My advise here is to adjust your calculations to include more water in your mash if you have more room in your kettle. Be careful mashing in, the grain won't absorb water or release trapped air right away so you could overflow your pot. I've done this.

Also, hitting your strike temp will do wonders.

I heated the water to 74c, and after I added the grain I was at about 67c. I thought the hard part was heating it back up at 30 mins on an electric burner - even with lots of stirring, it got too hot on the bottom. I guess I should probably build a mash tun.

You mean heating it back to 69? Yeah that's a real pain trying to use the element to heat a mash on the stove. Work on hitting your initial temp. Once you get more brews in on your system you will dial it in. You may also want to insulate your kettle dirung the mash with a towel or blanket. Turn the element off so you don't burn the house down.

If your supplier is crushing your grain...

I'll try asking for a finer crush next time - Dave seems like a nice guy.

I'm guessing his crush may be fine. NG is hit or miss though. Vendors generally don't want to be adjusting their mill every time and the crush you get is usually aimed for the cooler mash tun single infusion brewers.

Would the fact that this mash included 3/5 roasted barley and flaked barley make it trickier than one that was all malt?

BCS dry stout? FWIW I had bad efficiency with that one too. My pH was decent after the water treatments so I don't think it was that. Maybe all the roast and flaked, I don't know, and haven't rebrewed it yet.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks, You did overnight mash with full volume BIAB and it worked well? What was your starting mash temperature please.

I think it was my beta-amylase that got knackered.

[S-04]

bad efficiency with that one too.

Well that makes me feel better.

Thanks, Rob.
My next brew will be a rebrew of my Grolsch clone using munich. I'll get the temp a little higher, insulate my kettle and squeeze the bag. Maybe it will be even better than the first batch was, back when I didn't know my efficiency sucked.

[mr x]

Bcs dry stout should be made with - 05. Also, I've had to use amalyze to get the beer to finish. For some reason, I'm doing something wrong on the flaked barley conversion.

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