Electric Brewery Plan

[LiverDance]

I'm finally getting things together for me electric berwery build and wanted to share what i'm planning so far. Looking foward to hearing comments and insight on my plan so far.

[GillettBreweryCnslt]

What is the amperage of the 1500W element? I see that you do not have the element select switch so I'm wondering if you accidentally have both elements on at the same time if you'll trip the breaker.

[LiverDance]

What is the amperage of the 1500W element? I see that you do not have the element select switch so I'm wondering if you accidentally have both elements on at the same time if you'll trip the breaker.

Hmm, I plan on having both elements running at the same time. Will I need to up my breaker size and add another PID for this? Please remember I have no sweet fucking clue about electricity

[mr x]

Add up your amps....

[GAM]

21.36amp BK
6.81amp rims
1.4amp pump
=29.57amp

Sandy

[LiverDance]

So that's awfully close to 30A, do I need some sort of buffer? Should I go with a 40amp breaker?

[sleepyjamie]

where'd u get these schematics?

[GillettBreweryCnslt]

40 will work, it's too close for a 30. If you ever wanted to expand to have 2 boil pots (to do back-to-back batches) you'd need a 50. Just something to keep in mind.

[LiverDance]

where'd u get these schematics?

HBT

[RubberToe]

Good old P-J. I didn't go with the e-stop and use main switch plus contactor to switch my panel's incoming power. The e-stop creates a short to trip the GFCI. The rest of my panel is pretty much based on P-J diagrams like this one except for a few things like the element switching. Your diagram has DPST switches for the elements (both 240V legs). I use a DPST contactor there and switch it with a 120V illuminated switch.

[GillettBreweryCnslt]

Yeah, I'm planning my build to be very similar to the actual electric brewery build...but with a few less bells and whistles. I'll start that thread once I receive the rest of the materials.

[AllanMar]

21.36amp BK
6.81amp rims
1.4amp pump
=29.57amp

Sandy

Are you building some extra room into these numbers?
4500W/240=19.58A BK
1500/240= 6.25A
1.4A pump
=27.23A

A bit higher then I would normally want, but considering the pumps typically draw less then this you could probably get away with it. Might want to weigh that against the cost of upgrading your wiring/breaker.

[RubberToe]

Another question to ask yourself is will you need the RIMS tube and the BK element running at the same time? If not, put a 3 way switch in there and stick with 30A.

[LiverDance]

Another question to ask yourself is will you need the RIMS tube and the BK element running at the same time? If not, put a 3 way switch in there and stick with 30A.

I think I will. I'm thinking I want to be able to heat the sparge water while recircing the mash. Will I need another PID for this as well?

[RubberToe]

You would yes.

Ahh, I was thinking you were going to cross circulate / no sparge.

Sent from the brew timer.

[LiverDance]

You would yes.

Ahh, I was thinking you were going to cross circulate / no sparge.

Sent from the brew timer.

I am, I'm just calling it sparge water but it's not.

[John G]

If you're heating your sparge water in your boil kettle then you can't use your boil kettle to sparge into until all the sparge water is gone. This means you need a third vessel to collect the runnings from the mash until the boil kettle is empty of sparge water. If you need three vessels then you might as well look at Herms systems. That way you have your sparge water nearly heated during the mash and you can sparge directly into your boil kettle and get the boil going sooner. Am I making any sense?

[LiverDance]

If you're heating your sparge water in your boil kettle then you can't use your boil kettle to sparge into until all the sparge water is gone. This means you need a third vessel to collect the runnings from the mash until the boil kettle is empty of sparge water. If you need three vessels then you might as well look at Herms systems. That way you have your sparge water nearly heated during the mash and you can sparge directly into your boil kettle and get the boil going sooner. Am I making any sense?

This may explain it a bit better http://www.alenuts.com/Alenuts/brutus20.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GAM]

21.36amp BK
6.81amp rims
1.4amp pump
=29.57amp

Sandy

Are you building some extra room into these numbers?
4500W/240=19.58A BK
1500/240= 6.25A
1.4A pump
=27.23A

I allow for NSPI to put out 220V.

It happens.

Sandy

[mr x]

Yeah, I'd estimate 235 at best.

[RubberToe]

This may explain it a bit better http://www.alenuts.com/Alenuts/brutus20.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are you really going to mash for one hour (recirc with RIMS here) and then cross recirculate / sparge for another hour?

In my BIAB setup I full volume mash for 1 hour, lift / squeeze the bag, no mashout, no sparge; and get 77-80% efficiency. I'm sure you could hit those numbers by only having an element in the BK and starting a cross recirc after 30 minutes of mashing. The problem with eliminating the RIMS tube here is hitting your temperatures in the mash tun.... shit. So you need the RIMS and you need 2 PIDs to use the system as you explained.

I just talked myself into a circle... Unless you can come up with a scenario where you don't need both elements at once then you'll need 2 PIDs and 40A.

On a related note I was thinking of getting sleepyjamie to bring his pump and cooler mash tun over, then doing a Brutus 20 style full volume cross recirc. We could do a 10 gallon big beer.

[LiverDance]

My plan was to mash for 30mins then cross circulate for 30mins or until equilibrium was reached in the solution. I thought about only 1 element but I'll need the rims for doing step mashes in pilsners and such.

[LeafMan66_67]

21.36amp BK
6.81amp rims
1.4amp pump
=29.57amp

Sandy

Are you building some extra room into these numbers?
4500W/240=19.58A BK
1500/240= 6.25A
1.4A pump
=27.23A

I allow for NSPI to put out 220V.

It happens.

Sandy

Depending on the rating of the element, the current (I) will change based on voltage (E), since the resistance (R) of the element is a constant.

Example:

If the element is rated 4500W @ 240V, calculated current is 18.75A. Resistance of the element is E/I = 12.8 ohms. As the voltage decreases, the current will also decrease because I = E/R and R is constant for the purely resistive load. So, once you know the resistance, you can calculate the new current at different voltages. So, at 235V, current would be 235/12.8=18.4A but the element would only be 4314W. As well, at 220V, I=220/12.8 = 17.2A and the element would only be 3781W.

The key is paying attention to the actual rating of the element, whether it is 4500W@240V or 4500W@220V or somewhere in between. From there you can determine the current based on your actual voltage. Hope it helps. That's all I got for a Sunday morning.

[John G]

I don't know what the code is here in NS, but Kal from theelectricbrewery.com site mentions that many places stipulate that you must have a supply of at least 125% of the maximum rated amperage of what will be used for continuously operating appliances such as hot water heaters. Based on that, regardless of how you calculate the above you'll likely need to go to a 40A double pole breaker in your panel instead of 30A. I'm not an electrician though, so don't listen to me.

[LeafMan66_67]

I don't know what the code is here in NS, but Kal from theelectricbrewery.com site mentions that many places stipulate that you must have a supply of at least 125% of the maximum rated amperage of what will be used for continuously operating appliances such as hot water heaters. Based on that, regardless of how you calculate the above you'll likely need to go to a 40A double pole breaker in your panel instead of 30A. I'm not an electrician though, so don't listen to me.

CEC states that an overcurrent device can only be loaded to 80% of its capacity. You can get 100% rated breakers, but you are looking at larger frame sizes with solid state trip units, costing lots of extra money.