My Brewing is all Fucked Up.

[GuingesRock]

I made too many changes at once. New full volume mash system with whirlpool cooling, had water analyzed and started adding brewing salts, started dry hopping, PH adjust with acid malt. I’m not enjoying my last IPA batch so much, it has an unpleasant mouth feel/taste and I don’t have a clue what’s gone wrong.

I’m now frantically back pedalling. I want my beer back. I'm cutting the Gypsum addition in half and leaving out the Epsom salts.

The beer (double batch) had 6oz of steeped Amarillo slurry in the 3 day dry hop and maybe I had the steep temp too high for the slurry. I’m going to do less dry hops and I’ll leave out the slurrying for now (may try again sometime).

My new whirlpool system chills really quickly compared to before so my previous FO hops aren't the same and also I now add them at 180 and chill quickly.

The other change was bringing down the PH to 5.3 (checked it with my PH meter) with the acid malt, but I can't see any issue with that. But then maybe it is something to do with the acid malt, or maybe the acid malt I have is old and rancid.

Too many changes all at once and I don't know where I am. It took a year to get where I was as far as making beer I liked goes, and now it seems it's all fucked up …at least for now.

I have two more beers on the go, one going into the keezer today and one in the fermentor. Some variables changed as different beers, so I might some clues from those beers.

To make it even more complicated though, these latest two batches are using liquid conan with a starter and oxygenating with O2, and previously I used dry yeast only.

There’s a moral in this story somewhere.

I enjoy a challenge, and I’ll get to the bottom of this, but it’s enough to drive a person to drink at the moment …except I have nothing to drink just now.

As my father used to say ..."experience is cheap at any price".

[Jimmy]

I'd cut out all ingredient changes and brew a batch, then add one variable back at a time.

[mr x]

I don't there was any need for acid malt at all.

[jtmwhyte]

What X said, I've not used it ever and I'm sure there is some benefit, but not having it hasn't affected my beers. I'm sure you'll get your beer back in no time!

[mr x]

I should say for pH adjustment in Mark's beer. I have used acid malt for flavour in certain beers before.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I just tried the latest batch, "champagne Citra" and I think it's going to have the same flaw. This one had no dry hop slurry, and a light 3 day dry hop with 2oz pellets only. That's one variable excluded I think.

After your comments, I think I'm leaving out the acid malt. I'm also toning down the salt addition to 10g gypsum only after doing some reading last night in Gordon Strong's book. I did a beer with gypsum only before that was well reviewed. I'm changing my whirlpool additions to 2 minute ones.

I asked Greg and Jeff for feedback on the IPA at the valley meeting and they couldn't put a finger on it, all they could say was there was something "not nice" in there. There was no diacetyl.

[mr x]

Yeah, cut those salts too. IIRC, your water was fairly soft, so no reason to get to crazy until you get comfortable with other aspects of the brew.

[RubberToe]

What's your fermentation like? Yeast and temperatures.

[redoubt]

Mark, have you brewed your original recipes on the new system with any of these changes? Since you know you like those beers, and how they should taste, they'd give you a solid baseline for the system, or tip you off early to anything weird. If they come out well, then you could add your changes one at a time to see what the results are. Plus, this will ramp up your beer-on-hand so you won't run dry!!


Keely.

[dean2k]

I'd cut out all ingredient changes and brew a batch, then add one variable back at a time.

Yup.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks, I agree with all that.

What's your fermentation like? Yeast and temperatures.

Rob, I don't think it's a yeast issue. The IPA was done the same as I always do it using US-05, with good temp control using the built in fermentor immersion coil and it had the problem. I don't think that's one of the variables.

[LiverDance]

Is this the beer you were doing with Bramblin Cross and Amarillo? Personally that sounded like a terrible combo to me but who knows.

[RubberToe]

Mark, have you brewed your original recipes on the new system with any of these changes? Since you know you like those beers, and how they should taste, they'd give you a solid baseline for the system, or tip you off early to anything weird. If they come out well, then you could add your changes one at a time to see what the results are. Plus, this will ramp up your beer-on-hand so you won't run dry!!


Keely.

Yeah this is probably the best way to attack the problem.

[mr x]

Yeah, that's not a combo I'd think of doing either, but you never know till you do it I guess.

[GuingesRock]

Is this the beer you were doing with Bramblin Cross and Amarillo? Personally that sounded like a terrible combo to me but who knows.

Great! a new challenge, when I get my brewing mojo back of course ...making a drinkable "Bramarillo". That's the one in the fermentor at the moment. The bad IPA was Amarillo Galaxy, an old favorite.

Driving back just now from a niece’s birthday party at the zoo, an eagle swooped down and caught a big cock pheasant beside the road, and took off somewhat horizontally with the pheasant in its claws. I had to break so it didn’t hit the windshield. How heavy are hose pheasants anyway?

Here’s a pic of Bramarillo.

[Jimmy]

Driving back just now from a niece’s birthday party at the zoo, an eagle swooped down and caught a big cock pheasant beside the road, and took off somewhat horizontally with the pheasant in its claws. I had to break so it didn’t hit the windshield. How heavy are hose pheasants anyway?

That would have been awesome to see!

[GuingesRock]

I was using about 5% acid malt in a low malt profile beer. I've been googling and that's too high as it will affect taste. People say it produces a "noticeable tang".

I don't think I will use it again. Not sure it suits my beer.

Thanks again for the pointers.

Outside of adjusting your pH, you could use this malt in making the sour beer style of the Berliner Weisse. The Weyermann site suggested using 8% of your grain bill of acidulated malt to produce the intended result. I have the idea that this beer could be used to make other sour beer styles too. http://www.brew-dudes.com/acidulated-malt/262" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lactate Taste Threshold experiment: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... experiment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We had some of the latest batch last night (Champagne Citra) and I compared it with the ipa this morning also. It doesn't have the same problem. It does have a slight lime tang from the acid malt, but not the bad flavour. Makes me think I might have screwed up the large slurry dry hop as I didn't do a slurry with the champagne citra. Another difference is the citra beer had no whirlpool additions and only a light dry hop.

The Bramarillo in the fermentor did have whirlpool additions, no dry hop slurry, had acid malt, light dry hop. Should give more clues in 10 days time. Back-assed way of going about it I know.

[AllanMar]

Could try phosphoric acid instead of lactic (acid malt). I use lactic acid (mainly because I always have), but phosphoric seems more common for pH adjustment (likely for this reason). I am usually under 1-2mL (88%)/5gal though (not sure how that relates to acid malt)

[GuingesRock]

Could try phosphoric acid instead of lactic (acid malt). I use lactic acid (mainly because I always have), but phosphoric seems more common for pH adjustment (likely for this reason). I am usually under 1-2mL (88%)/5gal though (not sure how that relates to acid malt)

According to the EZ calculator my mash PH without acid malt would be 5.68, I haven’t actually checked that as I didn’t have the PH meter back then. With the 1lb acid malt in 12 gal the measured PH was 5.3.

What I don’t know is how much difference there will be in the beer between those two PH levels. Especially if I’m paying a price to bring down the PH in terms of giving the beer a tang. Phosphoric acid might be better, as you say, but is it really worth it? Will I notice much of a difference bringing down the PH by that amount?

[mr x]

While there probably must be some difference between 5.3 and 5.68, I think you are chasing an unknown target. I used to use a drop or two of phosphoric randomly, but in reality, I don't believe I have the means to compare brews with and without.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks Rob,

The Champagne Citra is OK, thank God. I’ve been enjoying it and had a house full of people today raving about it, which helped my confidence. Most of a keg is gone. They didn’t seem to notice the acid malt, but I did.

I’ve been doing an investigation for 2 days now. It’s one of those times when detailed brewing notes with jotted in taste comments comes in handy. It’s like black box results after an aeroplane crash. I was also able to tie in many of the brews with judging results from the Brewnosers review, the Big Spruce comp and the Garrison comp. The judging result sheets were the most useful thing. Also I had the information and help on this thread to tie in.

Here’s where I’m at, and what I think, from tying all the information together.

1) The worst disaster, the IPA with "something not nice in it”. I think was caused by the large dry hop slurry I did with Amarillo. I must have done something wrong there.

2) 5% acid malt isn’t a good idea, even if the PH looks good on paper.

3) I don’t like hop stands with Galaxy. The Brewnosers review judges didn’t like it either. I think the words “vegetable soup" were used. They averaged me 31 points for that one. Most thought the “slight vegetal tomatoe flavour”, “a bit onion garlic flavour”, “vegetal aroma”, “somewhat spicy or herbal? Maybe vegetal”, was caused by hops and wondered which hop I had used. They said it wasn't DMS. I get my best results from Galaxy with a 2 min addition. The Garrison beer that the judges liked but said was out of style had a 2 min addition of Galaxy only. I've stopped doing hop stands altogether.

YMMV

Next I’m going to have another go at Bramarillo, armed with what I learnt from this experience. Maybe I’ll learn next that Bramling cross, Amarillo, Galaxy and Conan don’t mix

Thanks for (hopefully) getting me back on my track.

[bluenose]

Driving back just now from a niece’s birthday party at the zoo, an eagle swooped down and caught a big cock pheasant beside the road, and took off somewhat horizontally with the pheasant in its claws. I had to break so it didn’t hit the windshield. How heavy are hose pheasants anyway?

That would have been awesome to see!

Yeah for sure... no dashboard cam?

[bluenose]

I hope Gwyngeez doesn't mind me highjacking this thread, but I've been unable to hit my SG for a while now. I'm consistently coming in lower than target. Where would be a good place to start fixing this?

[GuingesRock]

I hope Gwyngeez doesn't mind me highjacking this thread

Sure thing!

What kind of mash/sparge process. How long?

[bluenose]

Both keggle BIAB and cooler mash tun

The BIAB mashed for about 75 mins and the cooler for over 2 hrs