The Boil

[Rathers]

Hey,

There is 7 reasons for a good boil in my opinion...

1. Sterilization of the wort
2. Removal of volatiles (DMS etc.) . It's worth noting that the although DMS is formed throughout the boil the real issue with DMS production is actually during the stand. This is because DMS is being produced but not boiling off. Its almost impossible to remove all the precursor DMS. If you have big DMS problems its usually because either your boil is not vigorous enough or your stand is too long.
3. Maillard reactions which darken the beer (like baking bread).
4. Hop isomerisation.
5. Protein coagulation. Essentially hot break and trub formation.
6. Evaporation leading to higher gravity.
7. Denaturing of enzymes and. PH changes.

This list is kind of open to what you classify as what is separate. In regards to Berliner Weisse beer it actually is boiled but for a very short period of time to keep the colour low and because there is very little need for a long boil.

If you were to decide not to boil your wort it would have a large amount of lactobacillus from the malt. It's actually what happens in distilleries because they use the souring/wild bacteria to break down the sugars to try to get as much alcohol as possible. Distilleries will aim for a finished gravity of .997 sg. So essentially you create an incredibly watery sour beer.

The only other golden rule of boiling is not to boil over 2 hours.

The link below is a paper that sums this all up much better than I can which should help.

http://www.ibdasiapac.com.au/asia-pacif ... 0Paper.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers,

Andrew

[bluenose]

Informative thread... one area I'm unclear on is the hot break

Is this the foamy crust that forms during the early boil?

Do we want to scoop this out or leave it in?

[RubberToe]

Informative thread... one area I'm unclear on is the hot break

Is this the foamy crust that forms during the early boil?

Do we want to scoop this out or leave it in?

Yes, hot break is usually early in the boil and I've found it happens quite quick with a strong boil. Otherwise it may take up to 10-15 minutes.

I've heard of people scooping it out but I don't think it's neccessary unless you're tight for room and afraid of a boil over.

[GuingesRock]

I thought that the hot break was those flecks of white coagulated protein that float around furiously in the in the boiling wort like a snow storm. You can see them if you scoop the surface foam to one side.

[GuingesRock]

Just found an interesting link on hot and cold break and how it affects your beer. It says the foaming up represents the beginning of the hot break. http://www.love2brew.com/Articles.asp?ID=526

[GuingesRock]

I do gravities of hot wort by putting it in a SS bottle and bathing that in ice to get to temp and using a hydrometer. I have a refractometer if you want it, then you can tell me how to use it.

Sandy

Sandy, I just have my head stuck into Randy Mosher’s “Tasting Beer” book this evening, and I think I know why your refractometer works well for OG but is “way off” with the FG…they are all like that according to page 66.

Page 66:
…once the beer is fermented, the alcohol’s higher refractive power distorts the measurements, so the refractometer is mostly a brewhouse tool, and not a cellar tool.

So, it's good for measuring OG and not FG, and you have been using it correctly. I hear it's easier to measure the hot wort with those too, as you don't have to chill a large sample.

[chalmers]

There are calculators that do a decent job of estimating actual SG based on a refractometer reading (built in to Beersmith, for instance), but it's true that it's not reading of only the dissolved sugars.

http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refra ... alculator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tony L]

Informative thread... one area I'm unclear on is the hot break

Is this the foamy crust that forms during the early boil?

Do we want to scoop this out or leave it in?

Hot break is produced all the while the boil is in progress, but the greatest bit is initially when it comes to a boil.

Recently I have begun to " scoop the foop "when it first forms as it reduces the cover initially and helps prevent boil overs. I have also heard it helps
keep down tannins in the wort as the foop contains a bit of chaff from the grain. It has been working out well for me these past few brews I have been using that procedure.

[adams81]

Hmm.

So if I'm making a lager with low IBU is it feasible to do a short boil (15 or 30 min)? Just long enough to get a hot break, denature the enzymes present, sterilize the wort, and isomerize enough of the hops?

[mr x]

There's a bit more to it than that though. DMS, depending on malt, and estimating IBU from a short boil can be sketchy.

[GuingesRock]

Hmm.

So if I'm making a lager with low IBU is it feasible to do a short boil (15 or 30 min)? Just long enough to get a hot break, denature the enzymes present, sterilize the wort, and isomerize enough of the hops?

Only way to find out is to try it. According to the books, you'll have DMS problems, but there's a lot in the books that is simply repeated and passed on without experiments to back it up.

Any study starts with a theory, but then is followed by the experiment, discussion and conclusions. A theory should never automatically equal a conclusion.

If someone hasn't tested this before, I think you will need to test it to find the answer you need. It probably has been tested somewhere though, and a search would be a useful starting point.

[adams81]

More interested in the theory of this than actually carrying it through.

Normal boil times get me more out of my hops, that's enough for me (and my wallet).

[GuingesRock]

Long boils only get you more bitterness out of the hops. I thought you only wanted low IBUs and were late hopping for flavour and aroma, which to me is the bigger value in hops, and is destroyed by the long boils. For me, boiling the hell out of hops, is wasting them.

[adams81]

My apologies, it was a hypothetical situation.

I'm interested in the DMS aspect of this. From what I can find it's formed from SMM (S-Methyl-Methionine?) and is only formed when heat is applied. So, mashing and during the boil. Maybe the longer boils are just to convert as much SMM to DMS vapor as possible and limit the amount of DMS left over by using up the precursor?

[GuingesRock]

I'm interested in the DMS aspect of this. From what I can find it's formed from SMM (S-Methyl-Methionine?) and is only formed when heat is applied. So, mashing and during the boil. Maybe the longer boils are just to convert as much SMM to DMS vapor as possible and limit the amount of DMS left over by using up the precursor?

I have read that chilling quickly stops the DMS production. A short boil might work with a rapid chill following it, to halt the DMS production ?????

[adams81]

That's the question! The only complication I can think of is if the DMS is formed more quickly than it evaporates.

[GuingesRock]

That's the question! The only complication I can think of is if the DMS is formed more quickly than it evaporates.

Yes! at some point during the boil it must reach a point where it doesn't. That point might be at the beginning of the boil, half way through, or after 90 minutes.

If you knew where that point occurred, it would then be possible to do a post boil dilution with cold water at that time. That would bring down the temperature instantaneously, to below the DMS formation temperature range. It would be like throwing a switch.

[GuingesRock]

Just did a quick search on DMS and it is "very volatile and boils off rapidly". Crash chilling with a post boil dilution (throwing a gallon or two of cold water into a concentrated brew) after 15 or 30 minutes, might just work.

[adams81]

This was a good read and is encouraging as well.

http://byo.com/stories/item/2816-better ... -mr-wizard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[derek]

I think the comment about what the books will tell you is right on the money. A lot of things that are repeated time after time were true once but with modern malts are either less so or not true at all. All you can do is experiment, but if someone says they're getting results that the "book" says are impossible, I'm inclined to believe they might be right

[Jayme]

Some of the more expensive professional brewing texts might have actual data to back up claims. Most moderately prices home brewing books written by amateur brewers simply wouldn't have the funding or resources to conduct that kind of research.

All that is to say, I would be interested what brewing scientists like Lewis and Bamforth would have to say.


Sent from a rotary telephone using taps talk

[Jayme]

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This book also just references research from the 70s, by the bit about the precursor having a half life of 40 minutes is interesting... And that the degree of kilning determines the quantity of precursor. Colder fermentation temperatures also apparently form more dms during fermentation! I also read in another section that late addition hops can also add dms!

[GuingesRock]

Hope you don't mind Jayme. Wanted to read it and was getting a neck crick.

[Jayme]

Huh it appears right side up on my phone... Anyway no I don't mind haha


Sent from a rotary telephone using taps talk

[GuingesRock]

The books say to chill your wort as quickly as you can after the boil, to halt DMS production. Pretty well all the books say that and so we all do it, well mostly all of us, because it makes perfect sense, and all the books say you have to do it. The other reason is to minimize the risk of infection, also makes perfect sense, but that’s another issue.

Hang on though. The no-chillers seal their boiling wort in a plastic container immediately following a 60 or 90 minute boil, sealing would hold in any DMS, and they leave it to sit around without chilling for a few days to cool by itself. They have no DMS problems doing that.

The next thing people do is say, that’s bloody nonsense. Those Australians, what do they know, all they do is go surfing and sit around on the beach drinking Fosters and having shrimp on the barby.

…I think they might know something about how to live life as well 

http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/06/06 ... ue-tested/