What are the [Real] Investments of AG Brewing?

[weir]

I'm on my second batch (another kit) and I really enjoy brewing so far. I would like to eventually get into AG brewing or BIAB, but I have a few issues right now (time, money and space).

Time is the big one, we have a six month old right now so my only free time is between 8-11PM, between when he goes to sleep and I normally go to sleep. I've read plenty and talked to a guy a play soccer with who is AG at this point, and it seems like the normal time commitment for a batch ranges from a 3 hours to half a day. Is this accurate? Because my wife will likely kill me and bury me behind the shed if I started spending half my Saturday making beer instead of an hour or so on a kit.

The next is money which is probably normal. I have my primary bucket, better bottle, hydrometer, siphon and bottling cane, but from what I understand if I want to go AG or BIAB I'll need a bigger kettle, something to cool it with, a good quality thermometer, a second pot or a cooler, and if I want to make it real easy some valves and hoses and some more time. What kind of investment would I typically be looking at for this much gear?

Of course on top of this I don't think my wife would be too pleased with me taking over the kitchen, so the alternative is buy a propane burner and moving to the back deck.

I really enjoy doing this, but the kits are admittedly kind of boring to make. I really enjoy this and will certainly keep the hobby up, but I either need to figure out if I can make these investments (time/money) or have to come up with more inventive way to play with kits a bit.

[berley]

Your estimates look about right to me, but maybe others can be more specific. You WOULD need a larger kettle, a chiller, and preferably an outdoor propane burner, like you mentioned. So, money-wise, that would probably be at least, what, $125-150? Guess it depends on quality and what route you go, chiller-wise.

In terms of time, an AG brew day for me, from starting to heat strike water (on the stove), to mashing, boiling (outdoors), chilling, transferring to primary, and cleaning up... it's about 5-6 hours.

[Jimmy]

This topic has a good guideline for equipment pricing to get setup for BIAB..keep in mind those prices are all for brand new equipment.

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Realistic pricing for BIAB (which will be your cheapest option and generally requires a shorter brew day) would be as follows:

$119 for OBK 15g pot
$19 for OBK ball valve
$21 for a dip tube assembly from brewhardware.com
$16 for OBK 2" thermometer
$25 for a BIAB bag

So $200 for the necessities

If your stove can bring a pot of wort to a boil you don't need to invest in a burner, otherwise you're looking at $60+ for a burner. The 59.99 one I listed in the BIAB thread should do the trick though

$260 if you need a burner

As for chilling, there's plenty of people who do the "no-chill" method (which would also shorten your brew time by at least 20 min). If you do want to go the chilling route you're looking at about $100 for the chiller.

$360 if you need everything.

This will give you a great setup that will allow you to do pretty well any 5g batch you want to. The thermometer, ball valve, and dip tube aren't necessary (you will need to buy a couple plugs for the holes), you can just use your racking cane to transfer to your fermenter from the kettle. With that being said I'd highly recommend having them.

[Jimmy]

Another thing to note. If you can weigh your grains and have them crushed the day before you can cut some time off your brew day the next morning. I find doing that really helps get things going quickly on brewday morning.

[berley]

Another thing to note. If you can weigh your grains and have them crushed the day before you can cut some time off your brew day the next morning. I find doing that really helps get things going quickly on brewday morning.

+1 to this... not to mention having your water measured out into the kettle the night before... not a big deal, just one less thing to have to do in the morning (or whenever you start).

[mr x]

I can help out a bit with those middle three items to at least eliminate shipping.

[Jimmy]

I forgot to mention; my typical brew day takes about 3.5 hours from setting up to everything cleaned and put away...if I actually do a regular brew day. What I normally do is mash in, then go for groceries or something. For the most part I don't worry about my mash length; sometimes it's 1 hour, other times it's 3 hours. I find doing that breaks the brew day up and doesn't require you sitting around waiting for your mash to complete. If you were to do this you would need some type of "upgrade" to maintain the mash temp. You could go electric and use a temperature controller, insulate the shit out of your kettle, or invest in a cooler. I started with traditional single vessel BIAB but have more recently been using a cooler to do a Hybrid BIAB method for this reason. The hybrid method takes the same amount of time, but requires less "baby sitting" of the mash.

[GAM]

I can do a BIAB in 3 hours.

You can also do a partial mash or extract & grain as a step to AG. With a concentrated boil and then water it down.

Also brewing 1/2 batches saves some time but not much.

Sandy

[weir]

Ok, just took a peek at this thread taking a break from work, tons of great info here guys, just what I was looking for.

So based on what I've read, it's probably close to a wash in costs and things can be done to save time, but still probably enough time and money in both cases that will have to ease myself into either AG or BIAB slowly, I won't be jumping in feet first for sure. BIAB seems like it might a bit better choice when free time is a big concern though.

I can do a BIAB in 3 hours.
You can also do a partial mash or extract & grain as a step to AG. With a concentrated boil and then water it down.

Is this what the NG house brand kits are? I looked at those last time I was in the city, I would assume I probably still need similar equipment in this case, but just use a smaller kettle?

[sleepyjamie]

my BIAB brew days are usually 3.5-4 hours with clean up. sometimes i will mash at lunch time during work hours then come home and do the boil.

[amartin]

It helps to have your grain and water measured out the day before, but you can crush your grains while you're heating the strike water. Also, keep in mind that during the mash and the boil you don't really need to do that much to monitor it, so you can get non brewing stuff done during that time.

If you're buying your grain from NG they'll crush it for you, but if you get grain elsewhere you'll need to crush it yourself. If you know somebody nearby with one they might let you come by to crush grain, but it's much more convenient if you have your own. I paid $120 USD on a trip to Boston a few years back, but getting one shipped will cost you more. I think NG carries barley crushers for $179.

[Jimmy]

Is this what the NG house brand kits are? I looked at those last time I was in the city, I would assume I probably still need similar equipment in this case, but just use a smaller kettle?

That's correct. It allows you to experiment with different styles, get some exposure to steeping grain & conducting a boil. I'm thinking you would probably want a 6 or 7 gallon pot for something like that - though I'm really not 100% sure as I haven't brewed with extract. My thinking is that if you're looking for 5g of wort at the end, you need a bit extra to account for your boil off.

[CorneliusAlphonse]

Is this what the NG house brand kits are? I looked at those last time I was in the city, I would assume I probably still need similar equipment in this case, but just use a smaller kettle?

to do the NG kits, all you really need is what you already have (assuming you have a large pot maybe 15L, if not they cost like 20 bucks). a good thermometer is a good small addition, too, and you'll need it as soon as you start down the road to all grain. but yeah, you could do one of their kits no problem, will take you ~3 hours probably, great way to ease into it. much more variety than canned kits.

also, jimmy's list has a few things that arent strictly necessary for all grain (i dont have a ball valve or dip tube (transfer by pouring from pot to bucket), and i did quite a few batches without a chiller just by putting my pot in a tub full of cold tap water to cool. the tub method is super slow any time except the dead of winter, though.)

[LiverDance]

I used to do the NG house kits in a 15L pot from walmart that was pretty cheap. It was a concentrated boil on my stove and then I just topped up with cold tap water to get to 23 liters in my bucket. This method allowed me to not have to have a chiller because the cold water helps bring it down to the proper temp. If it didn't I would wait till the next morning to pitch my yeast. You don't really need a crusher either casue you can crush your own grains with a rolling pick if need be but NG does this anyway.

[jacinthebox]

The Partial kits from NG have been a great way for me to learn the steps, temps, timing...

It's in an effort to work towards an AG someday....I'm looking for a big brew pot now

and you get to make spent grain bread after...

[jacinthebox]

My NG Kolsch turned out awesome...if you like german beer, this is a good one to make

[weir]

my BIAB brew days are usually 3.5-4 hours with clean up. sometimes i will mash at lunch time during work hours then come home and do the boil.

This would certainly work, my 'free time' issue isn't actually having the time, it's more so I work 9-10 hours days during the week, by the time I get home our little guy is going to bed in about 2 hours so I only really get to spend time with him on the weekends. That said, for only being 6 months old, he's totally fascinated by anything mechanical/physical, he laughed like an fool for about 1/2 hour while I bottle my first brew a few weeks ago, so I'm sure I can keep him entertained with whatever I do.

to do the NG kits, all you really need is what you already have (assuming you have a large pot maybe 15L, if not they cost like 20 bucks). a good thermometer is a good small addition, too, and you'll need it as soon as you start down the road to all grain. but yeah, you could do one of their kits no problem, will take you ~3 hours probably, great way to ease into it. much more variety than canned kits.

also, jimmy's list has a few things that arent strictly necessary for all grain (i dont have a ball valve or dip tube (transfer by pouring from pot to bucket), and i did quite a few batches without a chiller just by putting my pot in a tub full of cold tap water to cool. the tub method is super slow any time except the dead of winter, though.)

I don't have a pot yet, I've only done a Festa kit (no boiling) and I have a cheapo Muntons my brother-in-law gave me for Christmas to do next. I'm going to grab a pot on the weekend and I can probably get a thermometer pretty easily from work. Cooling in my sink should do the trick until I can get/make a chiller. I can get brazed plate exchangers pretty cheap from work but I'm assuming I need a pump on the wort side if I do that right? Might be easier to just coil some copper.

[LiverDance]

You can gravity feed a plate chiller, I have never done it but a google search will probably set you in the right direction.

[weir]

You can gravity feed a plate chiller, I have never done it but a google search will probably set you in the right direction.

I'm assuming I would need some sort of upstream filtration on the wort side to avoid having the plate channels getting clogged with any solid in the exchanger to do this right?

[LiverDance]

You can gravity feed a plate chiller, I have never done it but a google search will probably set you in the right direction.

I'm assuming I would need some sort of upstream filtration on the wort side to avoid having the plate channels getting clogged with any solid in the exchanger to do this right?

correct, I use paint striner bags. Google hop spider and you'll get the idea. Jimmy also sells custom bags that are kick ass

[GAM]

Ok, just took a peek at this thread taking a break from work, tons of great info here guys, just what I was looking for.

So based on what I've read, it's probably close to a wash in costs and things can be done to save time, but still probably enough time and money in both cases that will have to ease myself into either AG or BIAB slowly, I won't be jumping in feet first for sure. BIAB seems like it might a bit better choice when free time is a big concern though.

I can do a BIAB in 3 hours.
You can also do a partial mash or extract & grain as a step to AG. With a concentrated boil and then water it down.

Is this what the NG house brand kits are? I looked at those last time I was in the city, I would assume I probably still need similar equipment in this case, but just use a smaller kettle?

I have never seen one. Extract, Specialty grain and hops.

Sandy

[weir]

You can gravity feed a plate chiller, I have never done it but a google search will probably set you in the right direction.

I'm assuming I would need some sort of upstream filtration on the wort side to avoid having the plate channels getting clogged with any solid in the exchanger to do this right?

correct, I use paint striner bags. Google hop spider and you'll get the idea. Jimmy also sells custom bags that are kick ass

I looked at these when I first joined, and I think they're probably the way I'm going to go, just need to get a kettle first.

From the sounds of everyone's (great) advice, BIAB is going to be a little bit lighter time commitment especially if I prepare everything the night before, just need to set some cash aside for all the gear.

[gm-]

I recently switched to AG from kits, and here is what it cost me:

Nine gallon SS brew kettle from ontariobeerkegs with a ball valve, bazooka screen and thermomenter: $134 + $15 shipping (but I also ordered grains and yeast for first two batches in that same order to save on shipping)

52 qt. coleman cooler from crappy tire $25 on clearance
Ball valve and some fittings for the cooler $12 from home depot
I then used the bazooka screen from the pot in the mash tun so it looks like this:


I then got a propane burner for $60 at a place here in Saint John.

I do not have a immersion cooler just yet, so I borrowed one from canuck for the first two batches. Will probably pick one up in the future when my wife starts forgetting how much I've spent on all this brew stuff

So in total my setup far all grain was $246 and looks like this:


As for time, I did my first two batches in one day and it took around 9 hours from start to finish with clean up included (but there was a LOT of sitting around just waiting). I suspect that in the future I will stick to just doing one batch per day, and probably just get up early on Sunday morning and finish a batch before lunch so I can still spend Sunday afternoon and evening with the family.

[LeafMan66_67]

I went from Festa Brew to NG kits with steeping grains to partial mashes and then AG with BIAB.

For the NG kits with steeping grains, the only investmenst was a half decent pot (Heavy bottom stainless $40 at Wal Mart) big enough for a concentrated partial boil. I used an ice bath and cool water for chilling. My wife got me a propane turkey fryer with 30L pot for Christmas ($69.99)(I'm sure she wanted me out of the house for the boil!) so I started with bigger boils and soon found I needed a better method of chilling. I made an immersion chiller with 25' of 3/8" copper tubing from Rona for $25 plus a few bucks for fittings. From there, I started playing with partial mash and soon found the Brewnosers. I was able to pick up a 58L keg for pretty cheap ($20), made it into a kettle and went all grain BIAB with a bag from Jimmy ($20). I picked up a quicker response thermometer (3 seconds) from $12.

Over the past bit, I've made some improvements that helped shave time from the brew day. A stainless ball valve and dip tube replaced my autosiphon ($15 with fittings and some help from . My 25' immersion chiller was converted to a counterflow chiller with the addition of a rubber hose ($35) and some scrap copper pipe. My latest changes were some quick connects for the pot to chiller and an RV style (drinking water safe) hose ($20 at Wal Mart) to eliminate carrrying my water out of the basement.

The brew day time savers were definitely the valve and counter flow chiller.

My usual brew day with 60 minute mash, 10 minute mash out and a 90 minute boil is 4 to 4.5 hours including the bulk of the cleanup. Grains are measured the day before, hops measured out during the mash.

[LTownLiquorPig]

I went from canned kits without a thought of anything else until a Noble Grape opened 35 minutes from me..... So I got a 4 gallon pot for Christmas, thinking I'd start with specialty grain partial mashes. About 10 minutes into my first specialty grain batch on the stove I realized I should just BIAB small batches on the stove to get the hang of the process before I go bigger. It's really easy actually, mash in the oven to help hold temp, and boil on the stove. Just going with the crush Noble Grape gives me, I get 71% efficiency, no special work. Start to finish my two 2.5 gallon batches have take me about 3.5 hours; cleaning the kitchen to keep the boss happy, making supper, etc... during the waiting periods. Other than watching for hitting strike temp and watching for boil overs when you start the boil there is a lot of down time. And it's always at least 15* in my kitchen, and no windchill.

Just go for it man, you'll be glad you did. If I could start over I'd invest in the pot first, the bigger the better, because you can always do smaller batches in a bigger pot. Bigger batches in a small pot just won't work....