Repeated Infections *UPDATE*

[mattvincent24]

I've been brewing beer and wine for about 6-7 years and I have never had an infection. At least not one that i could detect. Then a few weeks ago i keged the second carboy of scottish ale i had from a 10 gallon batch. When transferring to the keg i noticed a very thin translucent film on top of the beer that broke apart like ice pans floating in the harbour. I tasted the beer and it had a plastic/vinyl taste. This flavor wasnt on the first keg but i drank it anyway. Then the same thing happen to the second keg of brown ale. The first keg was the best beer i ever made. Thanks to alli, my wife for perparing the recipe. Anyways, in the secondary, after about one month i notcied the same film. Tranfered to the keg and low an behold....Plastic/Vinyl taste! Now im freaking out. I run to my brew room and check the rest of my beers in secondary, All of them have the same film. I check my bottles and the same film! So I taste of one of the beers in secondary and it tastes fine. I guess it hasn't had enough time to show the flavours. Anyways as it stands right now I have about 120l of beer that im going to have to drink as fast as i can or its going down the sink.

Anyways, anyone here know what type of infection im dealing with? I'm thinking maybe wild yeast? But i would assume my normal sanitization practices should take care of that .... so maybe bacteria? Any suggestions on how to deal with this issue. Im thinking getting ride of everything made of plastic and buying new. And maybe soaking everything else in bleach. What should i do with my kegorator? Beer lines, gas lines, fittings, o-rings all garbage or can they be saved?

Sorry guys if im ranting here but like i said im trying to get ride of 120l of beer so im a little fuzzy right now.

[Jimmy]

Any pics?

[mattvincent24]

i'll get some here in a bit...

[mattvincent24]

ok its really hard to get pics through the glass so bear with me .....

This one shows the beer in secondary. The camera makes it look much worse than it is. But the "patchiness" is the thin film im talking about. The white "blobs" are co2 bubbles. Really guys, this pic makes it look like a science experiment, but its really not that noticeable.

[Jimmy]

I had something that looked the same on the brown I brewed at the learn2brew day. I kegged anyway and will drink it until I notice something wrong with it.

[mattvincent24]

IMG_1844.JPG

This one is obviously beer in the bottle. Different batch but same problem. Again the pics don't do it justice but the "swirly" stuff on top of the beer is the film....

[mattvincent24]

IMG_1845.JPG

I also noticed this in the bottles and carboys......Not sure if its just yeast suck to the sides or apart of the problem.....

[mattvincent24]

I had something that looked the same on the brown I brewed at the learn2brew day. I kegged anyway and will drink it until I notice something wrong with it.

Thats the thing.... the only beers that i notice the flavour change is ones that have been sitting in the secondary for awhile.. 1 1/2 to 2 months ish...I've been able to store beer much longer than that previously. I have beer here showing the same signs of infection but tastes great. Im having one right now actually! But whatever this is it has to go....either that or i brew 5 gal at a time and drink its while its young... but thats no fun!

[Jimmy]

I had something that looked the same on the brown I brewed at the learn2brew day. I kegged anyway and will drink it until I notice something wrong with it.

Thats the thing.... the only beers that i notice the flavour change is ones that have been sitting in the secondary for awhile.. 1 1/2 to 2 months ish...I've been able to store beer much longer than that previously. I have beer here showing the same signs of infection but tastes great. Im having one right now actually! But whatever this is it has to go....either that or i brew 5 gal at a time and drink its while its young... but thats no fun!

I agree, I'm just hoping it's not a recurring problem. I've had 2 brews since then and neither show signs of this, so fingers are crossed.

[mr x]

OK, what are you doing for cleaning and sanitation?

[mattvincent24]

everything that touches the beer post boil is soaked in oxyclean after brew day. Then on brew day everything in rinsed with hot water and starsan'd. After some research in pretty sure that crushing my grain in the same room as i ferment is the problem.

[mr x]

That could be an issue, but not necessarily. I'd change the hoses and racking canes for sure if you haven't already. My hoses and canes all get boiling water siphoned through before using. Carboys get hot water, caustic, and starsan.

[know1]

That could be an issue, but not necessarily. I'd change the hoses and racking canes for sure if you haven't already. My hoses and canes all get boiling water siphoned through before using. Carboys get hot water, caustic, and starsan.

I agree with X, tubing is cheap.

I had to dump two batches to what i think was lacto, similar film with more bubbles than seemed normal after a few weeks in secondary and a distinct sour taste in both. I called it my 'awakening' after which I replaced my hoses, tossed a bucket, bleach stripped everything else non-stainless & triple+ hot water rinsed. I also became anal on starsan use and decided to no longer primary ferment in plastic, (which was only occasional anyway) and stick with glass carboys with airlock or blow off. So far so good.

[Jayme]

I think you can isolate it somewhat to pieces of gear that every batch touches. What do you use for a chiller and how do you sanitize it? Do you run boiling wort out your kettle valve before flame out? Have you been using the same tubing for everything/is it fairly old? Do you prime your kegs with corn sugar? Think through your process very carefully (feel free to list it point form here) and try to pin point any stage that is common and could be harboring wild yeast. There are so many little things that could cause this but it's hard to advise without all the details. Don't get discouraged - the problem can most certainly be fixed.

[bluenose]

I started washing my hands... worked wonders

but on a serious note, how long do most of you use your hoses before replacing?

[Jayme]

but on a serious note, how long do most of you use your hoses before replacing?

I inspect mine before each use. If there's anything inside, I'll set it aside and use a clean piece. Then I will wash the dirty ones on the keg washer with PWB. If I can't get them clean on there, trash.

In between regular uses though, I of course rinse and sanitize immediacy after the transfer. Usually I can get several months out of a piece of tubing before having to run PWB through it, and I think I've only had to through out a few pieces that I couldn't clean on the keg washer.

[mattvincent24]

Do you run boiling wort out your kettle valve before flame out?

No i don't. I just spray star san in the fitting before draining but this is a good point. I think it could be my racking tubing if anything other that the fact that i crush grain in my fermenting room. My auto siphon is new but the tubing has been around awhile. Some beers i ferment in buckets, some in a plastic 60l and some in glass, so i dont think its that. The only stuff common to all batched is my siphon rig, and my boil pot, mash tun, and HLT. Maybe ill replace every thing plastic and ferment the next batch in glass. But what about my kegorator? Gas lines, beer lines, o-rings? And I can't use bleach on the kegs right?

[Jayme]

I wouldn't dwell on crushing your grain in the fermenting room. While it does create the potential for infection, I would think it's fairly unlikely it would infect each and every batch. The kegerator itself should not be the issue - as long as your beer is under pressure, the lines shouldn't feed back into the keg. It could make the beer nasty after passing through the beer lines if they're dirty, but not the entire keg. And no, bleach + stainless is bad. PBW (oxyclean), hot water, starsan.

If I were you, I'd just replace the siphon tube to start. If you change too many things at once, you'll never know for sure where the problem came from - while in the short term, not a big deal, but long term can make it harder to fix the issue again in the future should it happen again.

[Araxi]

I had a problem like that a few years ago, I was getting a phenolic (bandaid) taste and smell. Turns out it was my kettle bulkhead, I wasn't cleaning it well enough.

[jeffsmith]

I had a problem like that a few years ago, I was getting a phenolic (bandaid) taste and smell. Turns out it was my kettle bulkhead, I wasn't cleaning it well enough.

Some nasty shit will build up in those valves/bulkheads. I've gotten in the habit of taking all my fittings apart after every 5th or 6th batch, giving it a good soak and scrub in PBW and then retaping and reinstalling everything.

[mr x]

I just make sure I recirculation hot wort though lines that will contain cooled wort.

Sent from my Nexus S

[mattvincent24]

And no, bleach + stainless is bad. PBW (oxyclean), hot water, starsan.

Thats the thing.... I soak everything that touches the cool wort in oxyclean at least over night, hot rinse, then on brew day another hot rinse then starsan. I always thought i was too anal about sanitization, so im starting to think its my kettle valve. Its the only thing common between all the infected batches except for the racking hose and I've never taken it apart since i put the system together. I am now Im over 12 batches. I always thought that the heat would kill anything living inside that valve but i guess i was wrong. So i guess my plan of action will be:

1. Stop crushing grain in that room.
2. Clean the shit out of my kettle valve.
3. Replace racking hose.
4. Hot soak everything else in oxyclean.
5. Run some oxyclean then starsan though my beer lines and taps.


Am i missing anything? Could this infection be something that the standard oxyclean/starsan wont take care of?

[mr x]

When you say hot rinse, do you mean tap water? I use boiling water. Boiling hot liquid through the valve should kill everything in it so long as you have enough time to heat it. I'm not a big believer in pulling them apart.

Sent from my Nexus S

[jeffsmith]

When you say hot rinse, do you mean tap water? I use boiling water. Boiling hot liquid through the valve should kill everything in it so long as you have enough time to heat it. I'm not a big believer in pulling them apart.

Sent from my Nexus S

Call it piece of mind for me. I saw the shit that came out of the nooks and crannies the last time I disassembled and soaked.

[CorneliusAlphonse]

taking it apart is definitely the easiest way to clean ever nook and cranny, IMO.