Starter size

[Stusbrews]

I have 2 questions actually....
1) I dont see an area on this site for the many dumb noob questions ... any suggestions?? (Other than "smarten up")
2) Im wondering about the suggested starter size in all the places I checked.
Im gonna do a 4 gal Steam beer, using california lager (2112), but the suggested starter size is 1.9 L, altho its only 1.052, and will be done at 67, not 50F like most lagers. This 2112 is more like an ale than a lager yeast, as far as temps go, so almost 2 L sounds way overpitched to me. I was under the impression massive yeast amounts were only needed for low temps, so would really appreciate any thoughts.
Stu

[NASH]

Yeast calculator here:
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wouldn't worry much about cutting the pitch to maybe ~ 1 L but remember, ideal yeast pitch rates are what they are because they're ideal. Keep that in mind if you want to make the best beer you possibly can

[Stusbrews]

Well Ive got 2 L bubbling, so may az well pitch it all tomorrow then. It was the higher temp, lower og and volume that made me doubt it. Overthinkin it again!
Thanks for that Nash. And yes, I do wanna make the best I can, which is why I questioned it....

[derek]

I have 2 questions actually....
1) I dont see an area on this site for the many dumb noob questions ... any suggestions?? (Other than "smarten up")

Surprisingly we don't seem to get many. Maybe because we don't have an area for "dumb noob" questions, people ask the dumb ones elsewhere

But feel free to ask anywhere here that seems appropriate.

[Jayme]

2 L sounds way overpitched to me.

It's likely you have an old pack of yeast. Viability of liquid yeast goes down much faster than that of dry. The pitching rate calculator Nash gave you a link to takes that into account and it's pretty much on the money. The only way you'll get closer to ideal pitching rates is to stain and do a cell count. I noticed a massive difference in beer quality once I started observing proper pitching rates.

[NASH]

2 L sounds way overpitched to me.

It's likely you have an old pack of yeast. Viability of liquid yeast goes down much faster than that of dry. The pitching rate calculator Nash gave you a link to takes that into account and it's pretty much on the money. The only way you'll get closer to ideal pitching rates is to stain and do a cell count. I noticed a massive difference in beer quality once I started observing proper pitching rates.

I've mentioned this before, but the age or viability of the yeast makes absolutely no difference once you have an active starter!

I've said most of this on the forum here before but it's buried deep somewhere so I'll go over it again.

The suggested pitching rate for ale starters at high krausen when up-scaling is ~ 10x, so for a 23 L batch you should pitch a 2.3 L starter. Also, it's reasonably normal practice to pitch at more like 5x on the 1st generation, once you smack a liquid pack and it swells it's already gone through the first generation, pitch that into a starter and it's now generation #2 and so on. For dry yeast you generally pitch an 11 g sachet into a 23 L batch (unless it's a higher gravity batch), that means you should pitch ~ 1 g into a 2 L starter. Being that it is technically the first generation it wouldn't hurt to double that (although not necessary) which would make that ~ 1 g pitched into a 1 L starter. See where I'm going with this? Think about it. Re-hydrating dry yeast is one thing but if you are going to make a starter you could make 11 separate 1 L starters from 1 sachet, and that's at double the recommended pitch rate. So really if you use dry yeast and make a starter every time, you only need to pitch a gram or 2. Compare it to a liquid yeast smack-pak, you make starters to get up to proper pitch rates but you don't pitch 2 or 3 or 4 packs into each starter

2 L yeast starter.jpg

I used to use 500 ml Erlenmeyer flasks with ~ 350 ml of wort for starters I wanted to save, as soon as there's decent activity throw it in the fridge where it will basically go to sleep. You can pull them back out of the fridge 3 months later, let it warm and it will start fermenting again. Pitch that in another 1.5 L starter and watch it go nuts then pitch into the main batch. I've done this with starters up to a year old or more with seemingly no ill effects.

Also if you are confident with your sanitation technique and bacteria load in your brewing area it's a piece of cake to just steal wort back out of the main batch into Erlenmeyer flasks, growlers or whatever you use, same thing again, once you see activity throw it in the fridge. - Brew a 23 L batch, pitch a 2 L starter, now it's a 25 L batch, steal 2 L back out into a growler with airlock, wait until the onset of fermentation, put it in the fridge, pull it out of the fridge next week, let it rock, brew, then do the same thing again, and again, and again. Since bacteria is always picked up with each fermentation no matter how anal retentive you are with sanitation I wouldn't take this too many generations unless you can wash with ClO2 or have a lab for bacteria counts etc. Say maybe 5 tops, that's being reasonably safe, some people have done this 10 or more times consecutively. I was a broke country boy with few resources for homebrewing living outside Amherst in 1991 and probably learned these and other techniques out of necessity more than anything else. Doing these sort of things is economical, fast, easy and brings you a lot closer to self-sufficiency


Also, I've seen chatter here again recently about the 'packaged on' date of liquid smack-paks with regard to viability. It's a useless figure if you are using a starter. Once you have a starter fermenting it's at 100% viability save for the few dead cells from the tiny original pitch into your starter wort so yeah, maybe it's only 99.8% viable. That said if the viability is low you'll want to make the first starter a smaller step, then step that up into your final starter volume. I've seen folks use the yeast calculator adding in their full batch volume, packaged on dates and getting results like '4 smack packs required' and I'd really hate to see anyone buy 4 packs of yeast to pitch into a starter

[Jayme]

I've mentioned this before, but the age or viability of the yeast makes absolutely no difference once you have an active starter!

That said if the viability is low you'll want to make the first starter a smaller step, then step that up into your final starter volume. I've seen folks use the yeast calculator adding in their full batch volume, packaged on dates and getting results like '4 smack packs required' and I'd really hate to see anyone buy 4 packs of yeast to pitch into a starter

I did not elaborate to the same extend you did - obviously there is a limit to cell growth so if you're using an ancient pack of yeast in a whopping 5L starter, it's not going to quadruple your cell count, but if you pitch that into a 1L starter and then step up that starter (twice if you have to), you can use a pack of yeast with 30% viability and still pitch the proper number of cells. I've never ever bought 2 packs of yeast but very often have had to do 2 stage starters (Noble Grape often has old yeast).

Greg Doss, Microbiologist/Brewer, with Wyeast Laboratories stated on the AHA TechTalk (08/31/2005) that approximately the following was true:

Pitching a Wyeast Activator pack gives the following results within 12 to 18 hours:

1 liter starter = about 150 billion cells
2 liter starter = about 200 billion cells
1 liter starter, then pitched into 4 liter starter = 400 billion cells

This is from http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

If you have 50% viability (50 billion cells viable, 50 billion dead cells) and pitch that into a starter and get 200% growth rate, you now have 100 billion viable cells and still 50 billion dead cells. Active starter or not, your viability rate does not go up to 99.8% - it goes up from 50% to 66%.

I guess if you're only ever going to bother with a single step starter, then yes the viability rate doesn't matter - nor does the pitching rate calculator if it says more than one package of yeast.

[derek]

If you have 50% viability (50 billion cells viable, 50 billion dead cells) and pitch that into a starter and get 200% growth rate, you now have 100 billion viable cells and still 50 billion dead cells. Active starter or not, your viability rate does not go up to 99.8% - it goes up from 50% to 66%.

Though those 50 billion dead cells are pure "yeast nutrient". I guess if you make really big starters with high-viability yeast, you probably need to use more nutrient.

[Jayme]

Though those 50 billion dead cells are pure "yeast nutrient". I guess if you make really big starters with high-viability yeast, you probably need to use more nutrient.

Good point!

[NASH]

Perhaps you're taking my statement out of context. First, I don't know what size smack paks you are using but I default to 50 ml propagator packs and would multi-step those up into 2 - 3 L starters. When I refer to an active starter I am referring to one in good health with 'proper' cell count weather it be a single stage or 10 stage and that is all. Generally I try not to deal with blind guessing at concentrated cell counts, there's too many variables. Assuming that most of you can differentiate between a smack pak that swells in 3 hours compared to one that swells in 3 days. React accordingly. Lag times and fermentation vigor are the best guides without proper tools. We have no idea where the yeast pack has been or how it's been transported and the temperature at which it has been stored, these variables can have tremendous effect on yeast health. Regardless, this thread was about pitch volume of a simple starter not how to make a starter of unknown cell count. Once you have that simple starter rocking, presumably close to proper live cell count of 750,000/ml, the date code on the smack pak doesn't matter in the least. Use your own judgement to get as close to that as you can without hemocytometer counts and staining under the scope and I'll use mine. I make educated guesses my way in breweries and am fairly successful at fermenting wort into reasonably consistent somewhat good tasting beer Calculate as you will, it's all just wild guessing without actual cell counts

[Jayme]

Fair enough - the original question was 'simple' and I'm making this rather complicated.

But I can't resist a good intellectual debate The cell count is not a shot isn't really a shot in the dark - the yeast manufacturer can control that fairly well in the lab. The viability is more of a shot in the dark since as you said, you don't know how it's been handled. I believe Jamil said at one point his research was based on ideal storage conditions meaning his calculator more gives you a maximum viability based on a known variable - age. After talking to Gavin, he agreed that no, viability of the starter doesn't matter (the cells that are not viable are broken down and consumed and therefore no longer part of the over all cell count, contrary to what I said in my other post - 100% viable cells in a starter essentially, like you said), however the viability of the original package of yeast does get you closer than nothing as it gives you an approximation of how many cells you started with (based on a lot of research by presumably pretty trustworthy sources), hence you have a better idea of how many cells have divided which dictates your final cell count within the starter, and whether you need to do multiple steps to have enough. Since the growth curve is exponential, starting with 50% viable cells makes a big difference in the final number of cells you're pitching into the beer. So while the date of the package indeed does not mean jack shit once you have close to a proper live cell count, it is the best way I know of to ballpark how many yeast cells you're starting with short of staining/counting. And I will soon start doing cell counts! I got a sweet VWR microscope on kijiji which means we have everything needed. Necessary? No. Fun? I think so! But given I do electronic development research in AM radio for a living, I am interested in some pretty nerdy things

[GAM]

Jayme

I've got an old Oscilloscope you can have.

Sandy

[CorneliusAlphonse]

Jayme

I've got an old Oscilloscope you can have.

Sandy

i can offer a kaleidoscope

[Jayme]

Jayme

I've got an old Oscilloscope you can have.

Sandy

i can offer a kaleidoscope

I'll take the O-scope. Pass on the kaleidoscope - unless it's got some pretty gnarly shapes!

[Stusbrews]

Well, theres no doubt I had enuf yeast, as per the original post....
After 2 days of hellacious activity, it suddenly QUIT, and just overnite! WTF??
Confused, I opened the bucket, only to discover...its Done...gone from 1.048 to 1.012 in 2 days flat.
That cant be good..but have stuck it in the carboy, and we'll see what comes out in august.

[mr x]

Not necessarily bad, the ferm temp is the key.

[NASH]

Well, theres no doubt I had enuf yeast, as per the original post....
After 2 days of hellacious activity, it suddenly QUIT, and just overnite! WTF??
Confused, I opened the bucket, only to discover...its Done...gone from 1.048 to 1.012 in 2 days flat.
That cant be good..but have stuck it in the carboy, and we'll see what comes out in august.

That's perfect. Why would you think it's not good? 2-3 day fermentations are the norm for brews in that gravity range when properly pitched. Most breweries have small beers like this fermented, crashed, filtered, bottled and shipped out in less than 10 days so you're right on schedule. Temp needs to be controlled like Xman said.

[Stusbrews]

Well there may be hope after all then! Guess Im equating it with the kit lager I did that took a full 2wks. And it was the tastiest kit I did -Coopers Brewmaster Pil. Probly what made me look into AG actually.
Thanks for the ray of hope guys!

[mr x]

I've not used that yeast that warm,so I don't know what you shall expect, but how were you estimating the fermentation temperature of 67f?

[Stusbrews]

Im keeping it a tub, filled with the coldest I can get it(around 65/66) and change it out when it hits69/70. Thats basically morning & mid afternoon. Yeah, I know, it could be colder, and have been looking at a fridge/controller, but space and transport are a problem right now. Hopefully sorted soon tho.
Its also why I went with 2112. Higher temps, so hopefully not too bad with the taste. I figured, hey, they did it way down south long ago, before fridges, and it was enjoyed then.....
I didnt taste it this morn, but it did smell pretty darn nice. Which brings another point to mind...no sulphur smell at all with it! All I smelled during the action was the rum Id used in the airlock:)

[Jayme]

That's a bit of a temperature swing initially, but shouldn't be too excessive. We brewed the Cal. Common from BCS a month ago and fermented at 65 with little swing and let it rise to 70 after a few days and it turned out awesome.

[Stusbrews]

Yeah, Im currently enjoying a california ale, my 1st batch actually, but used s05 on that one, and it wasnt the middle of summer when it was brewed.
Just thought Id give this one a go...if it doesnt turn out, cest la vie. We do what we can, and learn something.

[Stusbrews]

Happy day! Bottled the steam today...crystal clear, and DAMN TASTY!!! Wishin Id made more...
gonna be a long 2 weeks, but also happens to coincide with the son coming out for a visit, so Im sure it wont last long.
On a side note, I put a cup of settled yeast in, and got about a cup back when I rinsed it.

[Jimmy]

So this is my first time making a starter and I'm doing it via a step up starter. Is there any reason I shouldn't add my 2nd step of the starter wort directly on top of the existing fermented 1st step of the starter?

[Stusbrews]

Exactly what I did, once the first had basically finished out. Must've worked cuz the brew finished up in two days...Also let it settle out overnite & just pitched the heavy slurry.