Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

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Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by mr x » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:34 pm

Fucking slimey dirtbags. :guillotine:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/1 ... river-land" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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The provincial government has sided with an Australian gold miner over a Nova Scotia Christmas tree grower.

Natural Resources Minister Charlie Parker announced Friday that he has issued a seldom-used vesting order that will allow DDV Gold Ltd., a subsidiary of Australia-based Atlantic Gold, to expropriate 14 parcels of land in the Moose River Gold Mines area for an open pit mine.

The 14 hectares encompassed by those parcels include 3.3 hectares owned by Higgins Family Christmas Trees, a long-time local business.

The Higgins family have repeatedly told DDV that they didn’t want to sell, even for the $300,000 which the company is reportedly offering for the land.

“This is exactly what we hoped the government wouldn’t do,” said Cleve Higgins, whose father Forrest owns the business. “This sets a dangerous precedent. It says to Nova Scotia landowners that a mining company can just come along and take away your land because it wants to.”

The Higgins family has retained Halifax lawyer Robert Pineo to seek a judicial review into the decision. If successful, said Higgins, they would then apply for an injunction halting the expropriation.

Wally Bucknell, executive director at Atlantic Gold, says the family is playing politics by trying to build a groundswell of opposition against a project that will bring much-needed jobs to the Musquodobit Valley.

“I understand a man’s land is his right and we’re not happy about this,” Bucknell said in an interview. “But we see the benefit for the common good.”

He added: “If we didn’t get this land we would have packed up and gone home.”

In a press release, Parker said that he weighed a number of factors in OK’ing the expropriation.

Ultimately, the release indicated, it came down to a question of the private interests of the landowners versus “the substantial public interest” in seeing the development of a mine that could create about 150 jobs while in operation and 300 jobs during the construction phase.

“This was a difficult decision to make, and while it may not be to everyone’s liking, I am confident that it best serves the public interest,” Parker said.

The deposit at Moose River Gold Mines contains about 635,000 ounces of gold with a current worth of $700 million. The project is expected to produce about 90,000 ounces of gold per year for five to seven years.

The company has said that it needs the Higgins land, which has been in the family for more than 120 years, for the project to be feasible.

The Higgins family says the land, on which they say that they grow trees and store equipment, is critical to the operation of their business.

“They knew from the beginning that it wasn’t for sale,” said Higgins. “They went ahead anyway assuming that they would get the appropriation all along.”

Bucknell, however, says the company is holding out to make a point, not because it actually needs the land to grow Christmas trees.

“We’re done deals with 29 people in Moose River and everyone is happy,” he said.

Parker’s decision was lauded by the Mining Association of Nova Scotia, which said it shows “support for the mining and quarrying sector” and that development of the mine will mean “growth in the local economy and rural employment.”

But the government’s decision had its critics, including local MLA Gary Burrill, a New Democrat backbencher and United Church minister.

“This is a decision that I regret,” said Burrill, who represents Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley.

He said expropriations are usually for a public good, like getting land for a road. He said there’s a public good in this case with the promise of jobs, but he doesn’t see that as the primary good.

“The primary good here is the private good of an international gold mining company, so in my view, the vesting order expropriation process is not the way to go,” he said.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by PEIBeerGuy » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:04 pm

If wortly saw this, he'd say "dirty cocks"... and rightly so.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by CorneliusAlphonse » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:24 pm

at first, i was sort of on the fence leaning towards the views of the government/mining people - jobs for people, etc. but then i saw that it will only result in an operational mine for 5 years. talk about short term gains over long term - ten years later, there will be no jobs, AND no christmas tree farm. short sighted on the government's part.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by GAM » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:55 am

Jane Pervis said it "Best Conservitave goverment we have had in years", When asked how the NDP govermant was doing.

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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by BBrianBoogie » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:08 am

Disgusting.

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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by mr x » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:51 am

I don't even want to live in this country anymore.
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Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by Brewnoser » Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:02 pm

Geez you guys. It's always been that way. You don't own the mineral rights to your land. In fact you don't own the groundwater either. How do you think any mine starts? This one guy is a hold out - he's just trying to get more money for his land than his neighbors did.

I have to laugh at people blaming one political party of the moment for policy that has been in existence forever.

It may not seem fair. But you can be sure he's been offered enough for the land that he can buy and build better elsewhere.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by mr x » Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:09 pm

Not the way I see it. And this is the second time the NDP has pulled this stunt. There isn't much sense in having a country when corporations can take the land you live on. Slavery , etc., etc., 'always was that way', until it wasn't. This is corporate theft. For what, a cyanide leach heap?
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by mr x » Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:33 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot ... ction.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Family vows to fight Moose River gold mine
Project received green light from provincial government last week

A family who is being told to make way for an open pit gold mine on their property says they'll take their case to court.

Last week, the provincial government announced it would allow Australia's DDV Gold Ltd. to take eight hectares of land owned by the Higgins family and develop the mine.

"What we're doing now is trying to do what we can to hold onto the land," said Cleve Higgins. "We aren't just going to accept this decision that's been made by the minister."

'This decision by the government could set a precedent for how mining happens in Nova Scotia from here on'—Cleve Higgins, landowner


The Higgins family runs a tree farm which employs 25 people in the Christmas season. The section in dispute is just one portion of the land owned by the family, but it includes the family home where Higgins' grandfather was born.

"It seemed clear to us that the government should maybe allow the mine to go ahead in a way that doesn't include our land, or there can be some sort of compromise. But they really have disregarded any of the concerns that we have."

Natural Resources Minister Charlie Parker made the finial decision, one he called difficult. But he said Nova Scotia will benefit in the deal through taxes, royalties and jobs.

The project is expected to create 300 construction jobs and 150 jobs during operation for up to seven years.

The Higgins family is now applying for a judicial review of the minister's decision. If that's accepted, the family will apply for an injunction against the expropriation of the property.

"This decision by the government could set a precedent for how mining happens in Nova Scotia from here on," Higgins said. "We really want to make sure that other land owners don't end up in the same situation we have."

Higgins argues this battle was completely avoidable. He said the family was clear five years ago when they were first approached by DDV Gold to buy the land. Higgins said they were shocked when the company didn't alter its plans, but instead asked the province to intervene.

"It's very frustrating," he said. "We didn't even realize that that was something the government can do."

He said there's been a lot of support for the family's position.

Higgins said in the long run, he wants the law to change to prevent other mining companies from expropriating land from homeowners.
Thieves. :barf2:
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by CorneliusAlphonse » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:13 pm

Brewnoser wrote:Geez you guys. It's always been that way. You don't own the mineral rights to your land. In fact you don't own the groundwater either. How do you think any mine starts? This one guy is a hold out - he's just trying to get more money for his land than his neighbors did.

I have to laugh at people blaming one political party of the moment for policy that has been in existence forever.

It may not seem fair. But you can be sure he's been offered enough for the land that he can buy and build better elsewhere.
like i said in my post, i was sort of on the side of the mining guys at first (for the reasons you just mentioned). but then i read that the mine they are planning will have a 5 year lifespan. that makes it ridiculous.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by LeafMan66_67 » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:58 pm

I guess what I don't understand is if you own the land, pay taxes on the land, what gives anybody (working under the same set of rules and regulations) the right to come and take that land from you? If it's been in the family for 120 years, one would expect that the land is theirs to do as they wish. Why should Nova Scotian's trust a company with a 5 year business plan?
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by derek » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:50 pm

LeafMan66_67 wrote:I guess what I don't understand is if you own the land, pay taxes on the land, what gives anybody (working under the same set of rules and regulations) the right to come and take that land from you? If it's been in the family for 120 years, one would expect that the land is theirs to do as they wish. Why should Nova Scotian's trust a company with a 5 year business plan?
They shouldn't, but why is this an NDP-bashing thread. The Higgins family is going to lose in court, because the Common Law allowing a private corporation to force them to sell is hundreds of years old.

Yes, it's corporate theft, and I'd like to see this government take a stand (which would surely go all the way to the Supreme court - where they would LOSE!), but it wasn't on this government's watch that this whole process started, and it won't be on this government's, or likely any government in my lifetime,that the law changes.

As for the 5-year plan - that doesn't make it a 5-year mine. They can't extract the amount of gold they believe they can access in 5 years.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by mr x » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:54 pm

It's and NDP bashing thread because they are the government allowing it. Again.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by GAM » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:13 pm

If a Tory Gov did this the news would go rabbit.

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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by sleepyjamie » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:41 am

$700 million project and they offer the guy $300,000 for land that's been in his family for 120+ years.

what a f'in joke.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by akr71 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:13 am

LeafMan66_67 wrote:I guess what I don't understand is if you own the land, pay taxes on the land, what gives anybody (working under the same set of rules and regulations) the right to come and take that land from you? If it's been in the family for 120 years, one would expect that the land is theirs to do as they wish. Why should Nova Scotian's trust a company with a 5 year business plan?
Like Brewnoser said, you never truly 'own' the land. The Province grants you rights to title of the land, but always withholds mineral and groundwater rights. I'm not being facetious, that's the way property law works when you examine how the law is written. Its been that way since William the Conqueror - the King (Crown) owns everything and let us manage the land on their behalf. We pay property taxes for the right to do what we want on the surface.
Parallel Registration Systems
3. Nova Scotia has parallel registration systems for mineral rights and surface rights in land:
a. The Nova Scotia Registry of Mineral and Petroleum Titles established, inter alia,
under the Mineral Resources Act, "MRA", for minerals and other resources is
administered by the Department of Natural Resources.
b. The land registration system for surface rights is administered by Service Nova Scotia
& Municipal Relations.

The Common law
4. According to the law of England, gold and silver mines, until they have been aptly severed
from the title of the Crown, and vested in a subject, are not regarded as partes soli, or as
incidents of the land in which they are found. Not only so, but the right of the Crown to
land, and the baser metals which it contains, stands upon a different title from that to which
its right to the precious metals must be ascribed. In the Mines' Case (1568), 1 Plowd. 336,
336a., all the justices and barons agreed that, in the case of the baser metals, no prerogative
is given to the Crown: whereas "all mines of gold and silver within the realm, whether they
be in the lands of the Queen or of subjects, belong to the Queen by prerogative, with liberty
to dig and carry away the ores thereof, and with other such incidents thereto as are necessary
to be used for the getting of the ore."
I'm not saying I like it any more than the rest of you, but its been going on for centuries.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by mr x » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:24 am

It all still needs to be approved by the government. AFAIAC, the buck stops here, not 300 years ago. How can you negotiate a fair price, assuming you want to sell at all, when the other side knows the government will just take it on their behalf. It's rancid.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by akr71 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:27 am

sleepyjamie wrote:$700 million project and they offer the guy $300,000 for land that's been in his family for 120+ years.

what a f'in joke.
So is spending 7.5 million on the Queen's Diamond Jubilee right after massive cuts to the civil service & issuing a gag order to Parks Canada staff.
"I am aware that during this time of significant transition, the concept of loyalty can have a very particular meaning. However, as employees of the public sector, our duty is to support the elected government," employees were told.

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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by bluenose » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:01 am

The government will not just take it, but will force the sale through expropriation... The government will have the value of the land assessed and usually pays a little more than the assessed value... The Higgins family may find that $300,000 was a generous offer once the assessed value is determined.

It still sucks by the way as there is no mention as to what the government will get for the gold that's taken out of the ground.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by benwedge » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:08 am

The two issues I see here is that:
1) they're never going to release the geological reports publicly so we can see if there's any truth to the claims pertaining to the amount of gold available. The government has laid off most people capable of doing that analysis in house, and those who remain don't get to overrule the "jobsHere" folk who say that any pitch for jobs deserves government help. So they could be lying about the gold and getting the government to expropriate the land.
2) There's no public sharing of property values in the province. We're the only province which does not share the info publicly, so it's next to impossible to determine fair value for land. Tim Bousquet wrote about this in January. For all we know an identical parcel could have been sold in the area for $1 million.

Aside from that, the guy has no hope of winning the court battle (for reasons stated previously) and his buyout fee will all go to the lawyer. He'd be better off cutting his losses and going straight to the stock market.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by bluenose » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:10 am

benwedge wrote:The two issues I see here is that:
1) they're never going to release the geological reports publicly so we can see if there's any truth to the claims pertaining to the amount of gold available. The government has laid off most people capable of doing that analysis in house, and those who remain don't get to overrule the "jobsHere" folk who say that any pitch for jobs deserves government help. So they could be lying about the gold and getting the government to expropriate the land.
2) There's no public sharing of property values in the province. We're the only province which does not share the info publicly, so it's next to impossible to determine fair value for land. Tim Bousquet wrote about this in January. For all we know an identical parcel could have been sold in the area for $1 million.

Aside from that, the guy has no hope of winning the court battle (for reasons stated previously) and his buyout fee will all go to the lawyer. He'd be better off cutting his losses and going straight to the stock market.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by mr x » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:14 am

bluenose wrote:The government will not just take it, but will force the sale through expropriation... The government will have the value of the land assessed and usually pays a little more than the assessed value... The Higgins family may find that $300,000 was a generous offer once the assessed value is determined.

It still sucks by the way as there is no mention as to what the government will get for the gold that's taken out of the ground.
To me, assessed value is directly related to market demand. As I see it, market demand is off the chart.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by bluenose » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:34 am

well, the assessed value will be the value of the property at it's "highest and best use" which is the use that creates the highest value... in this situation a profitable Christmas tree farm would probably be worth more than a pasture. I'm not sure what the annual cash flow of their business is, but that's what they'd use to determine the value of of a commercial property.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by mr x » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:39 am

I think it's use as a gold mine makes the market value much higher. This is just an end around market based land values, and theft too AFAIAC.
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Re: Well, it's now OK for the NDP to steal your land

Post by akr71 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:06 pm

benwedge wrote:The two issues I see here is that:
2) There's no public sharing of property values in the province. We're the only province which does not share the info publicly, so it's next to impossible to determine fair value for land. Tim Bousquet wrote about this in January. For all we know an identical parcel could have been sold in the area for $1 million.
That's not entirely true. The Legislature recently passed Bill 73 on May 8 mandating the publishing of Sale prices. It is true we were the last province to do so. I license and distribute property and other geographic data on behalf of the province, so I deal with this on a daily basis.

http://nslegislature.ca/legc/bills/61st ... d/b073.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This Bill amends the Municipal Government Act to
(a) authorize registrars of deeds to publish sale price and related information contained in deed transfer tax affidavits;
(b) authorize the Minister to prescribe related information by regulation; and
(c) provide greater certainty concerning the sharing of information in deed transfer tax affidavits with property assessors.
While the bill has been passed, as far as I know, no one has been given any mechanism to easily publish the data. You could always walk into the County Registry office and request the information though.

Also, please don't think I'm defending the gov't on this - just trying to provide facts. I think the expropriation is Bullshit too.
Andy
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