Orval clone

[Lucas]

Going to attempt an Orval clone this weekend based off of the recipe linked below.

http://byo.com/cider/item/3027-orval-trappist-ale-clone

Anything stick out as weird? What is the best substitute for Belgian Pale Ale malt? Maris Otter? Pilsener? I will probably sub Willamette or Fuggles if I can't find the Styrian Goldings at Noble Grape. It seems to indicate that the dry hops should be added at the beginning of the 60 day secondary but I'm thinking I'll probably add another 1/2oz with about 10 days left in secondary.

Thanks in advance for any advice that you might have.

[CorneliusAlphonse]

It says that you shouldn't substitute anything for the Belgian pale malt. Not much help for you though... A European pils would be my bet on a replacement.

[jeffsmith]

I'd think that even a Canadian Pale Ale malt would put you in the right direction.

[jason.loxton]

This might help: http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/l ... 1/fix.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Belgian Malts: Some Practical Observations

by George J. Fix
Republished from BrewingTechniques' May/June 1993.

PALE ALE MALT
Ale brewers -- whether in the UK, Belgium, or North America -- have traditionally been fussy about the malt they use. The DeWolf-Cosyns pale ale malt was clearly produced with this fussiness in mind. It is a low-nitrogen (low-protein) malt, is well modified, and has minimal SMM levels. The high degree of modification is evident by chewing some kernels. They are almost as soft as marshmallows. Specific data are shown in Table I.
This malt's low diastatic power places definite limits on the amount of adjuncts that can be included with it in the grain bill (possibly no more than 10-15%). Notice that this malt has almost twice the coloring potential of the Pils malt; very little roasted malt is needed to give the finished beer a deep amber hue, if that is desired. The mashing schedule cited in the introduction was used in the pale ale test brew (see box, Test Brew #2). Given this malt's high degree of modification, the rest at 52 degrees C was likely redundant. Otherwise, its brewhouse performance was quite similar to that of the Pils malt.

The pale ale malt has a classic English character; it imparts a definite "maltiness" to the finished beer, yet sulfury effects are totally absent. Many people use ester levels as a discriminator between ales and lagers. I believe that this method is not strictly valid because certain lagers do well with a high ester profile, and conversely some ales do well with a subdued ester profile. A far better discriminator is the malt character of the finished beer. Lagers tend to be insipid without some hints of that Central European malty/sulfury flavor tone. On the other hand, I cannot think of a single ale style in which such flavors would be welcome. Ale brewers who agree with these observations will view the very low SMM levels of the DeWolf-Cosyns pale ale as advantageous.

A natural question to ask is how Belgian pale ale malt stacks up to the top English two-row malt, namely Maris Otter (Great Ryburgh, England). What follows may sound like a cop out, and it likely is, but I feel it is too close to call. Both are outstanding. In fact, malt data on each are remarkably similar, and actual brews indicate that their color and flavor contributions are similar as well. The best advice I can give is to let price and availability determine which malt you choose. Brewers will not regret a decision for either malt." [bold added]

[jason.loxton]

I don't think North American pale ale malts were widely available at the time this article was published, so you might be better of, as Jeff suggests, going with domestic pale ale. Dave carries it.

Pilsner malt would be a poor substitute, I think.

[Lucas]

Thanks for the help, everyone. Yes I saw that the linked recipe says specifically not to substitute the Belgian pale ale malt but I am kind of stuck as I don't want to ship anything across the country (or across an ocean). I will go with either Maris Otter or just Canadian 2-row.

[Lucas]

Just found another clone recipe on the Wyeast site that may be more recent.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_lambicbrewing.cfm

Overview

The brewing techniques similar to those of pale ales and bitters.
A two or three step infusion mash is done using a blend of malts to yield bright orange wort.
Styrian Golding and Hallertau-Hersbrucker hops are used throughout the boil to contribute flavor and bitterness around 33-35 IBUs.
Belgian candy sugar is used to boost the gravity in the kettle.
Primary fermentation is carried out with a mild Belgian strain of Saccharomyces cerevisiae.
The beer is dry hopped in the secondary to produce a delicate spicy hop aroma.
Brettanomyces culture in the secondary and for bottle conditioning.
This gives the beer a very unique flavor profile.
Beer develops flavors and aromas reminiscent of pie cherry and other Brett characters.
Ferments some of the remaining complex sugars present in the beer, which gives it a high level of carbonation.

Brewing Techniques

Malt Bill

Pale 2-Row 49%
Pilsner malt 31%
Munich 10L 10%
Carapils 10%
Crystal 60L 1%

Mashing

Mash in malts at 142°F and rest for 15 minutes.
Heat mash to 154°F and rest for 25 minutes.
Heat mash to 162°F and rest for 30 minutes.
Heat mash to 170°F and rest for 10 minutes.
Sparge at 170°F until kettle is full (1.042 specific gravity).

Boil

Add Belgian candi sugar to increase gravity to 1.054.
Boil for one hour, adding hops at the following times:
At the beginning of the boil add 1 part Styrian Golding and 2 parts Hallertau-Hersbrucker to contribute ~23 IBUs.
30 minutes into the boil add 1 part Styrian Golding and 2 parts Hallertau-Hersbrucker to contribute ~10 IBUs.
End of boil add Styrian Goldings for finish hops.
Cool wort to ~63°F.

Fermentation

Pitch with a mild Belgian ale strain (Wyeast 3522).
Ferment at 65°F for 4-6 days.
Rack to secondary.
Add the Brettanomyces culture (Wyeast 5526)
Add Styrian Golding whole hops.
Condition for two weeks in secondary at cellar temperature (50°F-60°F).
Bottling

Prime with dextrose or malt extract and bottle.
Condition at cellar temperature for 6 weeks.
This beer can be stored for months to years, during which the hop aroma will subside and the Brett character will become more pronounced.

[CartoonCod]

I did an orval clone last year and just bottled it a few months ago. Here is my recipe. It doesn't taste quite like Orval. I wasn't too picky on getting the exact malt profile, what I wanted was a good funky brett character which I got. Let me know if you want to try a bottle, I can bring one to a brewnoser meeting, or pm me and stop by for a drink.

Cheers,
Adam

[Lucas]

Thanks Adam. This is my first attempt at a clone and also my first time using brett. I would like to get fairly close to Orval for the sake of testing my hand at cloning but the most important part to me is the brett character as well. From what I gather from input here and from a few other places that I have looked, the malt profile is far less important than the yeast and the hops on this one, which makes perfect sense.

A couple of questions for you:

How long did you let the brett work before bottling?

At approximately what temperature did you ferment and condition? I have seen some recipes (like the BYO one linked in the OP) that recommend ~21C for the fermentation and others that go as low as ~16C. The temperature is hard for me to control at the moment but I am considering getting a heating pad as my basement is quite cold in the winter, and this would hopefully bring it up to around 21C. I am interested in brewing a wide variety of Belgian-inspired ales so the heating pad could be a good investment anyways.

Thanks!

[CartoonCod]

1) I pitched 2 bottles of Orval dregs after primary fermentation was done, then left it for about a year occasionally pitching more Orval dregs whenever I got some. Then bottled it. I left it for a year to make sure the Brett was finished so I wouldn't get bottle bombs since I bottled it in regular bottles.

2) I fermented it around 18-19C in the primary for about 1.5-2 weeks, then in then transfered to a secondary (outside of my ferm chamber) at ambient temp which is from 22-25 degC for 1 year.

I recommend using a swan shaped airlock for the extended aging because they evaporate less than the 3-piece airlocks. To do it again I would probably try for a more consistent lower temperature in the secondary and use some commercial Brett cultures like you are talking about.

I forgot to mention but I did a simple infusion mash I primed with table sugar and it worked well

[Lucas]

I special ordered the package of brett (Wyeast 5112), and it is something that I am planning on using fairly frequently so I think that I am going to try to maintain the culture. Will probably make the starter on Monday so that I can pitch half of it next weekend if fermentation is done and save half of it for later. I may throw in some dregs as well. It is a house culture that they pitch at Orval after all.

I will be using a swan-shaped airlock but I also have a corker and some heavy bottles that I have collected through hard work and determination and a love of Belgian strong ales so I may bottle after 1-2 months in secondary depending on how fast the gravity drops. According to Brew Like a Monk, Orval is bottled after only 3 weeks in the secondary which seems very early. Perhaps they don't add very much sugar at bottling?

I will also be doing a simple infusion mash and will most likely prime with corn sugar.

Oh and Adam if we both go to the Brewnosers meeting this Tuesday I will bring a bottle of an abbey-style dubbel that I brewed in the fall to exchange for a bottle of your Orval. I am a new member and I have never been to one of the meetings before but they sound like a good time.

[Lucas]

Here is an update and a question:

Measured gravity after primary yeast was done was 1.004 (I used 16% sugar).

I added the Brett 4 weeks ago. I had it in the basement where the ambient temp hovers around 12-13C. Two weeks ago the gravity had dropped to 1.0035 (measured with a finishing hydrometer so I think that I can measure it with this accuracy). There was a thin layer of off-white bubbly foam covering about 25% of the surface at this time. I thought that this might be the beginnings of a pellicle but I was not sure. I checked the gravity again one week ago and it was still at 1.0035 and the bubbly stuff still looked the same. I moved the carboy up to the main floor where it is a little bit warmer (16C) yesterday, and today this is what it looks like:



Is this the start of a pellicle, or just a regular krausen? The gravity has dropped to 1.003. When I took a gravity sample most of the bubbles disappeared. There is only a little bit left, mostly around the edges. Now on to the main question:

Should I bottle now or hold off another couple of weeks?

I have heavy bottles and I was planning on adding enough corn sugar to reach 3.0 volumes and then letting the Brett gradually take it up to 4 or 5. It seems like the Brett has really just started to work and I don't want to disturb it too much because I really want that Brett flavour to come through. I am drinking a sample right now and there is just a very faint trace of this flavour (which I could very well be imagining!)

What say you, Brewnosers?

[gm-]

I would just leave it for few more months, good things take time

[CorneliusAlphonse]

I'm with gm on this one,leave er a couple months

[Lucas]

Forgot to mention that I added dry hops at the same time that I added the Brett. Not sure if these should sit in there for too long. If I bottle soon I am planning on leaving it to condition in the bottles for at least 3 or 4 months before I start to drink it in earnest.

[CartoonCod]

I wouldn't try to follow the same fermentation schedule as Orval especially the first time you attempt the clone. I'm sure they've had their fair share of trial and error and have a honned in process based on experience and all the parameters they use.

I'm a fan of letting the yeast do their work and botteling when they are finished. Will botteling it earlier "lock in" some of the aromatics? I'm not sure about this, all I know is that some lambics and gueuze's are quite old and still have a hefty funk character. It looks to me that the yeast are still working at this new warmer temperature and I would hold off from botteling, but I'm a bit over paranoid about bottle conditioning and I want to know that the only carbonation in there will be from the sugar I add, but to each his own.

Those really small bubbles on the side of your carboy look young and fresh (based on observations from my lambics), and the other stuff looks like the early stages of a pelicle. In my carboys sometimes the pelicle took months to appear, but had a few small persistent bubbles for quite a while.

[Lucas]

OK, I am pulling my finger off of the trigger. Thanks for talking me down, folks!