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Woody wrote:Chris your secret is safe with me. lol It was under carbonated and I'll be upping it for sure next time. This should make it even more enjoyable. Thanks for the feedback. Next time I make this so in a few weeks lol I'm going to use a lighter crystal like the original recipe called for. I have some C30l so I might use that. Also I'm going to try the finish hops at whirlpool after the wort chiller gets it down a few degrees. I've got some great feed back and ways to make this monster better from Jeff/Brewnoser and can't wait to try again. Other readings I've done on this beer suggest Amarillo hops may be in the recipe. I'm thinking I might try using it in place of Centennial.

Derek, I hope you don’t mind me swiping your post from your advent beer thread, but this is something that I’ve been interested in and have often wondered about. You made a very good beer and now you want to improve it?

I'm interested to know what people think about this. Most times when I try to improve a beer it gets worse. I'd almost say if the first beer was good, don't try to improve it, move on and make something else, taking some of the things that worked well in that beer and incorporating them into the next beer.

It's also a bit mundane sticking with one beer and re-making it many different ways, striving to improve it. Perhaps my attention span isn't long enough to do that these days. I'd rather get on and make something quite different.

Re-making a bad beer, and trying to improve it, is even worse IMO.

If you take a whole lot of ideas from different people and try incorporating them, you'll end up with a camel (a horse designed by a committee). With feedback from competitions, you get so many conflicting ideas. Everyone tells you what they would do to make this the very best beer.

I’ve made three different batches of a beer before. The first was really good, then I thought if I keep improving this it will get better and better, instead it got worse and worse. The first time is nearly always the best. Maybe you get attached to the first one and any changes become a dissapointment …I dunno.

If Botticelli turned around and decided to change the picture below after everyone had seen it, would he be happy? Would anyone else be happy with the new picture? Then if he sought advice from 10 people about possible changes ..."very nice picture but she needs to be smiling," "Maybe slightly more profile on her face," "a couple more mythical figures in there and it would be a damn fine painting"

The other thing is, if you set out thinking that “this is a trial run, I’ll improve it next time” it won’t turn out as well because you won’t have given it your best.

???????????

Personally, I believe a lot of us out here are perfectionists, or at least we can always find a flaw in our own product that we believe can be improved. I think that's how we become better brewers. Do the minor tweaks always work out for the better - not necessarily, but that's how we learn.

I'm the same way with both beer and BBQ. There's a lot of BBQ that comes off my smoker that I consider flawed, yet it may get rave reviews from family, friends and judges. I took one taste of the ribs I passed on to the judges in Fall River this year and figured I would be down near the bottom, yet came in second place.

I do agree that we need to brew EVERY beer as if it's going to be up for judging, so that we have the best product we can make. As home brewers, sometimes that doesn't always work out, and that's why there's always a next time.

I'm sure that the Pliny clone from Derek was a great beer (jealous now that I didn't take part) but he knows in his mind what he wants to improve on, based on some feedback from other people. I say go for it, make some tweaks, test the results. But more importantly, have fun with it - after all, it is a great hobby with excellent benefits!

^ Some good points.

It may be that once a beer has been born, it can't be changed.

You can't clean up Paddy's AVA in the valley any more than you can take the DMS out of Keith's. The punters won't be happy.

G Rock I don't mind you shared my notes from the advent thread and you make some really great points. My wife tells me all the time to stop shitting on my beer when I let people try/enjoy it. If something is off it drives me nuts my with every sip I taste it and am reminded of what I'd like to change or did wrong. Life is not perfect and my beer will never be either. I was very happy with my IIPA and still am. The minor tweaks are just to see if I can improve my process or what a different hop may do. I learn most things the hard way. I don't make allot of beer twice and enjoyed this so much I want it on tap at home.

Brewing and (cooking) another love of mine are about my enjoyment of the hobby and part of that is make connections. I bet we are all like this. I love entertaining and great conversation. I see a look on someone's face when they enjoy said beer or meal you know when you have made that connection. My mothers is one of the best cooks I've have had the pleasure of trying well her and my grand mother. Mom always tells me she thinks I'm the better cook. I tell her she is crazy and that I think it always tastes better when someone else makes it or brews it. I can truly enjoy it then for some reason. You have me thinking: Am I being a perfectionist? absolutely! do I have unrealistic expectations? again yes. But will I ever change hell no. lol I want to always try and get better. I love this hobby and community and want to just keep learning.

Your post has me thinking I need to enjoy more and think less. Part of who I am! G rock get out of my head. kidding ha ha ha

Thanks for the great post and Leaf Man another great post of which I totally agree.

I'm going to post my scores and notes from my big spruce beer on my recipe thread...I'm hoping to figure out what when wrong (I did bad).
Maybe I'm going in the wrong direction in my brewing...I thought I was tightening up my process, but the results prove otherwise.
Look for ward to the help

I agree, I tend to think most of us in this community are perfectionists of sorts and always put their heart into their beers.
I as well pick my beers apart and notice minor flaws, it's great when we can receive quality feedback from the judges and have our beer assessed and improve from there.

As for changing the recipe to improve it, and making it worse, I'd have to say I disagree with this statement. I've brewed so many variations of my APA trying to fine tune my hop schedule and I'm very close to the point that I don't think I'll change it and that I'm very pleased with it.

Have I made errors in the past, you bet ya. Have I made some less than standard beers, yep. but I also look at the fact I've been brewing\fermenting for 2 years in late Jan. 9 months were Festa kits, 3 months were boxed Noblegrape kits, and after that I was planning my own recipes via extract until I took the jump to all grain shortly after the Spring NCM order.

However with that being said, V2 of Hoppily Ever After will be changed for the better. Won't be many changes. I am taking the bittering charge from 50 IBU to about 30-35 and increasing the liters by 5 to give myself a full keg and drop it to approx. 8.5% abv. Hop schedule besides FWH will be the same. Will it be equally as good. time will tell. If not I go back to version 1.

I hadn't brewed the same beer twice up until my Falconers Flight IPA - I'm currently drinking v2, and plan on brewing a v3. I think it's an important thing to do to see how changing one variable affects the final product. When trying to improve a beer, I think it's important that the original version was something you liked; there's no sense trying to improve shit I could rebrew my original Falconers Flight IPA and be happy drinking it as my house IPA, however, it just wasn't bang on to what I was looking for. I increased hop levels on v2 and it's still not exactly what I'd like, but it's got more appropriate hopping levels. v3 will likely see some additional water adjustment. To me, if you like a beer and want to drink it on a regular basis (I'm never going to complain about having a tasty IPA on tap), then why not try to improve it. If you're only making one small change at a time, you're likely not going to stray too far from the original beer.

Jimmy wrote:I hadn't brewed the same beer twice up until my Falconers Flight IPA - I'm currently drinking v2, and plan on brewing a v3. I think it's an important thing to do to see how changing one variable affects the final product. When trying to improve a beer, I think it's important that the original version was something you liked; there's no sense trying to improve shit I could rebrew my original Falconers Flight IPA and be happy drinking it as my house IPA, however, it just wasn't bang on to what I was looking for. I increased hop levels on v2 and it's still not exactly what I'd like, but it's got more appropriate hopping levels. v3 will likely see some additional water adjustment. To me, if you like a beer and what to drink it on a regular basis (I'm never going to complain about having a tasty IPA on tap), then why not try to improve it. If you're only making one small change at a time, you're likely not going to stray too far from the original beer.

This is what I am doing with my APA. Love the beer, nailed my grain build, just want to work out the hops and master this beer.

GuingesRock wrote:Derek, I hope you don’t mind me swiping your post from your advent beer thread, but this is something that I’ve been interested in and have often wondered about. You made a very good beer and now you want to improve it?

Just my $0.02, but I think its more about tinkering than trying to improve an already good product. The beer runs out eventually and we will have to re-brew. My train of thought is usually something along the line of "that was tasty, but I wonder what it would taste like with Chinook instead of Simcoe..." or "hmm, I think next time I should try to give this beer more of a malt backbone to stand up to those hops." Just because it is good, doesn't mean we don't want something truly awesome.

I say tinker away. If it is a solid recipe and you take it in the wrong direction, no biggie - you'll brew it again.

jacinthebox wrote:I'm going to post my scores and notes from my big spruce beer on my recipe thread...I'm hoping to figure out what when wrong (I did bad).
Maybe I'm going in the wrong direction in my brewing...I thought I was tightening up my process, but the results prove otherwise.
Look for ward to the help

Justin I have this sneaky suspicion your one hell of a home brewer. Your Cream Stout will tell the tail. I'll let the senior dogs help you with the process but just say go back to basics and just think about the next brew. You sound very knowledgeable from your posts. I made a blueberry wheat for my work Christmas party that I hosted and didn't like it. My co workers did but I don't like the style. Could you not liking the style brewed be a reason? I get excited for the hop bombs.

Woody wrote:

jacinthebox wrote:I'm going to post my scores and notes from my big spruce beer on my recipe thread...I'm hoping to figure out what when wrong (I did bad).
Maybe I'm going in the wrong direction in my brewing...I thought I was tightening up my process, but the results prove otherwise.
Look for ward to the help

Justin I have this sneaky suspicion your one hell of a home brewer. Your Cream Stout will tell the tail. I'll let the senior dogs help you with the process but just say go back to basics and just think about the next brew. You sound very knowledgeable from your posts. I made a blueberry wheat for my work Christmas party that I hosted and didn't like it. My co workers did but I don't like the style. Could you not liking the style brewed be a reason? I get excited for the hop bombs.

I dont mind wheat...as long as theyre not german...I prefer american wheat....more hops

I felt held back with my hops...I would have added lots more finish hops but feared i'd be out of style....I just wanna figure out what went wrong...yeast? I want tp learn from this comp, in an effort to not repeat in future brews

Very hoppy apa (IBU 30-40) are my go to brews...we drink them alot
My last 2 apa used 12oz in the kettle and 4oz dry hop each (10gal batches)

And as far as the stout goes...lie to me...my ego is fragile now lol

GuingesRock wrote:^ Some good points.

It may be that once a beer has been born, it can't be changed.

You can't clean up Paddy's AVA in the valley any more than you can take the DMS out of Keith's. The punters won't be happy.

Oh really? Cus last time we talked you said how much better the AVA is and how you enjoyed it. And I also think it's better. Things can change, beer can be improved.

Reading this again, maybe you're trying to indicate that once a beer has been commercially released, you have limitations on what you can do and still call it by the same name. I think with beer you have some wiggle room, but only if the beer is still recognizable as a version of the same thing. If it's wildly different, re-name it, or say "the new (whatever it is)". This doesn't really apply to homebrewers, though, so....???

-Keely

So um how about them Blue jays?

jacinthebox wrote:And as far as the stout goes...lie to me...my ego is fragile now lol

Look forward to your beer!

redoubt wrote:

GuingesRock wrote:^ Some good points.

It may be that once a beer has been born, it can't be changed.

You can't clean up Paddy's AVA in the valley any more than you can take the DMS out of Keith's. The punters won't be happy.

Oh really? Cus last time we talked you said how much better the AVA is and how you enjoyed it. And I also think it's better. Things can change, beer can be improved.

Reading this again, maybe you're trying to indicate that once a beer has been commercially released, you have limitations on what you can do and still call it by the same name. I think with beer you have some wiggle room, but only if the beer is still recognizable as a version of the same thing. If it's wildly different, re-name it, or say "the new (whatever it is)". This doesn't really apply to homebrewers, though, so....???

-Keely

I agree, wiggle room maybe. Do commercial brewers change a beer any way? I think may be not. Does Nash change Fathom? maybe he does. Seems like they just brew a new beer instead.

GuingesRock wrote:

redoubt wrote:

GuingesRock wrote:^ Some good points.

It may be that once a beer has been born, it can't be changed.

You can't clean up Paddy's AVA in the valley any more than you can take the DMS out of Keith's. The punters won't be happy.

Oh really? Cus last time we talked you said how much better the AVA is and how you enjoyed it. And I also think it's better. Things can change, beer can be improved.

Reading this again, maybe you're trying to indicate that once a beer has been commercially released, you have limitations on what you can do and still call it by the same name. I think with beer you have some wiggle room, but only if the beer is still recognizable as a version of the same thing. If it's wildly different, re-name it, or say "the new (whatever it is)". This doesn't really apply to homebrewers, though, so....???

-Keely

I agree, wiggle room maybe. Do commercial brewers change a beer any way? I think may be not. Does Nash change Fathom? maybe he does. Seems like they just brew a new beer instead.

My understanding is that there have been many tweaks to fathom over the years. Hops swapped in and out based on availability, etc.

redoubt wrote: This doesn't really apply to homebrewers, though, so....???

-Keely

Keely, just for the sake of argument and debate. Is there much difference between a home brewer and a commercial brewer? We don't talk about home chefs and restaurant chefs. We're still subjected to drinkers their behaviours. But, I'd be interested in what you say on that since you both brew at home and Kirsten also brews commercially ...and I'll take your word for it.

How many times have you heard someone, after a couple of pints of your beer, say "I wouldn't change a thing with this beer." They say "a thing" emphatically, and say the whole sentence a few times just in case you didn't hear the first time. They are heading for their third or fourth glass, and have fallen in love with it, warts and all, and want to be able to have the same beer again. It's almost like they are threatening you, in the nicest possible way, not to dare changing it.

It's also possible that we fall in love with our own beers ..."warts and all."

....Somebody brought a growler of Fathom to Keith’s pot luck last spring. I thought Great! and poured myself a glass. Instantly I didn’t like it. It wasn’t that it wasn’t any good, but it was different, not what I was expecting, and not the Fathom I knew so well. I was so disappointed and thought WHY would he mess with it, how dare Nash do that, as if Fathom belonged to me, you know . People get awfully possessive of their beers …try taking a glass of beer away from someone. I asked Jimmy and he told me that batch had been made slightly differently, can’t remember what the difference was now.

I still say, don’t “improve” a beer. The "improved" beer likely won't meet anyones' expectations, including your own. Move on and take what you’ve learnt forward to incorporate into a new beer.

At the very least, if you make changes they should be subtle. I noticed a change for the better in AVA, but Kathleen, who has drunk AVA for years at Paddys, didn't notice a change ..and that's the way it should be. She was always happy with it, and still is.