Dry yeast starter a no no?

[TimG]

So I want to make a relatively big (say 1.06 OG) hoppy IPA (23L batch). From what I read, an 11.5g dry yeast packet isn't enough. So I'm wondering if I can make a starter with a single US-05 dry yeast packet to result in the required amount for pitching?

I've read that starter for dry yeast 'hurts' the dry yeast because it uses up the built in 'reserves of food' that are designed in. This make sense?

If so, is the suggested option to buy two packets of US-05? If that is the case, maybe it makes more sense to just buy some liquid yeast and make a starter with that?

Any suggestions for a simple starter procedure (dry or liquid)? How long in advance of pitching does one need to start the starter?

Thanks guys.. newbie learning here

[mr x]

My experience is that one packet of -05 will be just enough for that beer if you give it good oxygenation (shaking at the minimum), and help it out with a proper rehydration. Depending on how old the yeast is and how well it's been stored of course. But for the price, and cost of making a starter, 2 packs will work well too.

[TimG]

Thanks X, I have had relatively high FG the past couple batches so I'm leaning towards two packs of dry (if I can't make a starter from one). I'd rather spend the $4 extra versus ending up finishing high.

Tim

[mr x]

Good choice. Have you tried harvesting yeast yet? It's a great money saving technique, that's really simple if you have good sanitation.

[jeffsmith]

Good choice. Have you tried harvesting yeast yet? It's a great money saving technique, that's really simple if you have good sanitation.

I'll definitely second harvesting yeast. I harvested enough yeast from one cake of Wyeast 1007 to brew 4 batches and have harvested and pitched again from one of those. It's been an excellent money saver and I've found the second and third generations of yeast have fermented out even cleaner than the first. The way I'm setting myself up now, I'll only have to buy one or two smack packs of yeast per year, if that.

[akr71]

... It's been an excellent money saver and I've found the second and third generations of yeast have fermented out even cleaner than the first. The way I'm setting myself up now, I'll only have to buy one or two smack packs of yeast per year, if that.

I've found that too. When you don't have a local brew shop to run to for supplies, its really handy to be able to look in the beer fridge and see what yeast you've got to play with.

I havest yeast from beer fermented with dry yeast too. I know its cheap, but the convenience of knowing I've got it on hand is good (and I do make a starter for that stuff).

[mr x]

I've heard many brewers say that the beer gets better after a number of generations. I've gone 7 with no ill effects, and only stopped because I was going with other yeasts. I also harvest the dry stuff, why not?

[LiverDance]

I've heard many brewers say that the beer gets better after a number of generations. I've gone 7 with no ill effects, and only stopped because I was going with other yeasts. I also harvest the dry stuff, why not?

I've started thinking about harvesting the dry now that it's $4 a pack.

[NASH]

Dry yeast needs NO oxygen. None. But oxygen won't hurt it at all.

You can work up dry yeast the same as you would liquid yeast. But then it does need oxygen when pitched, no worries about 'food' stores, wort is food. Fire up 1.5 L of 1.040 wort with a few pellets, boil, cool to 68F, pitch packet, pitch into full batch while still krausening... . Something like that. Just start it in the morning before you start brewing, a few hours will get it rocking like nuts since it's approaching enough cells for a standard gravity 19L batch. Be sure to aerate the wort. or add olive oil

Dried yeast is safe to repitch a couple times or so, I take it 3 generations sometimes, after that you're starting to play with fire unless you wash the yeast with ClO2. Dried yeast isn't pure, it does have minute quantities of other bacteria from the process of dehydrating it, these will multiply with each fermentation and eventually get you where it hurts. Liquid yeast are called pure cultures because they are, well, pure cultures.

Yeast does change after a few generations, usually reaches peak performance by generation 3, 4 tops, although gen 2 is usually pretty damn good. The difference is more pronounced with dry yeast. Yeast conditions itself to it's surroundings, namely wort. The yeast will ferment stronger, cleaner, more complete attenuation... yadda yadda... it will begin to mutate eventually, depending on the strain, flavours change, floc characteristics change...

[TimG]

Awesome, thanks for all the info guys. I will be asking how to harvest my yeast late next week for sure!

I think I will also try the US-05 starter as described above by NASH, gotta learn sometime right? I'll start it the day before just to make sure that if it shits the bed I can pitch a couple dry packets. Sounds fairly straight forward, and I will do some more reading as well. The only part that I'm not sure of is the aerating (assuming I need to do this to the starter wort and the 'real deal' wort). Do I just stir it around vigorously for 5 min and gets lots of sloshing/bubbles?

PS: What is the deal with the olive oil?

Tim

[NASH]

Awesome, thanks for all the info guys. I will be asking how to harvest my yeast late next week for sure!

I think I will also try the US-05 starter as described above by NASH, gotta learn sometime right? I'll start it the day before just to make sure that if it shits the bed I can pitch a couple dry packets. Sounds fairly straight forward, and I will do some more reading as well. The only part that I'm not sure of is the aerating (assuming I need to do this to the starter wort and the 'real deal' wort). Do I just stir it around vigorously for 5 min and gets lots of sloshing/bubbles?

PS: What is the deal with the olive oil?

Tim

Dry yeast needs no O2 so you don't need to aerate the starter, you want it mixed in well though so aerate away Do not use 2 packets in a starter, it's a waste, too much yeast and would ferment the whole starter right out overnight, and if you start it the day before you are going to want to keep it cool so it will still be at a good krausen for pitching, maybe 55F, start letting it warm itself up to 65F a couple hrs or so before pitching. The other way to do it is to make it say 3 or 4 days before you plan to brew, decant the fermented beer from it then pitch the slurry. I like krausening... just because I can. And yes, splash like a madman to aerate

olive oil:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/thesis- ... hod-57627/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jeffsmith]

I will be asking how to harvest my yeast late next week for sure!

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast- ... ted-41768/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the method that I've used for washing yeast. Seems to have worked great for me.

[TimG]

Ok, I'll just do as I was told and make the starter Sunday morning to pitch Sunday evening, with the krausen still kicking.

Thanks for the olive oil thing, quite interesting! Didn't realize how important aeration was till today, another reason why my some of my last few batches weren't all that great fermentation wise.

Jeff, I'll check out the link and let you know if I have any quetions.

[NASH]

I will be asking how to harvest my yeast late next week for sure!

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast- ... ted-41768/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the method that I've used for washing yeast. Seems to have worked great for me.

Pretty good write-up, but more of a rinse than a wash, to remove trub, dead cells, proteins et al. Nothing wrong with that though, in fact it's good so long as the environment is very sanitary. Be nice to have some CLO2 in there though to kill the monsters, maybe some day it will be sold in small packets of Sodium chlorite for homebrewers

[NASH]

Ok, I'll just do as I was told and make the starter Sunday morning to pitch Sunday evening, with the krausen still kicking.

Thanks for the olive oil thing, quite interesting! Didn't realize how important aeration was till today, another reason why my some of my last few batches weren't all that great fermentation wise.

Jeff, I'll check out the link and let you know if I have any quetions.

Were you pitching liquid yeast? You know what I mentioned before about dry yeast... unless you're doing some higher gravity beers, in which case 1 packet isn't nearly enough either

[jeffsmith]

Pretty good write-up, but more of a rinse than a wash, to remove trub, dead cells, proteins et al. Nothing wrong with that though, in fact it's good so long as the environment is very sanitary. Be nice to have some CLO2 in there though to kill the monsters, maybe some day it will be sold in small packets of Sodium chlorite for homebrewers

I try to keep my brewing area pretty sanitary and seem to have been successful with the rinsing technique so far. I'm sure at some point I'll move onto actual washing—likely after my first spoiled batch of beer due to only rinsing the yeast.

[mr x]

If anybody would like a small sample of CLO2, pm.

[TimG]

So, attempted to make my starter from a packet of US-04 (they were out of US-05). Added 150g of DME to 1.5L of water, boiled for 15 min (somewhat vigorous, though I read after that it was suppossed to be a gentle boil?). Cooled it down to 75ish, dumped it into a 1 gallon jug and poured the yeast in. Covered with aluminum foil. Went to work and came back tonight to nothing.. no action, yeast all just sitting at the bottom!

So about 12 hrs, with no action.

What happened?

[mr x]

As long as 75ish doesn't mean 105ish, I don't see anything wrong there. Maybe this yeast just needs more time...

[TimG]

It was defenitely cooled down.

I expected 'some' signs of fermentation.. and I can't imagine it completed fermenting already (it would be cloudy and have visual signs of the krausen no?).

Tim

[mr x]

Most likely.

Give it a good swirl, get the yeast moving around, and look for signs of carbonation while you're at it.

[TimG]

Yup, I did that when I got home and looking closely now there is defenitely some action going on. Guess it just took longer than expected to get going. Now the question is, do I start my batch tonight, cool it down, cover it and wait for the krausen to peak before pitching (say in the morning?)

Tim

[mr x]

That's a question I can't answer for you. If it was me, I'd likely brew and pitch tonight if that was your original plan.

[John G]

I've always been told that dry yeast should first be rehydrated with water before introducing it to wort. Dehydrated yeast first needs water to properly re-establish cell wall permeability before taking in food from malt sugars. Viability is supposedly higher in water hydrated dry yeast compared to wort hydrated yeast. I've not tested this myself though.

John

[mr x]

Yeah, IIRC Fermentis outlines that procedure on their website, but neglects to mention it on the packets...