Getting mash water from regular hot water heater?

[TimG]

So I know this has been brought up a bit in the past.. but I'm pretty sure most folks use cold water in their HLT and then heat it up. I know 'some' (wortly for one) use it directly from their regular old hot water tank. This can be ~ 130degF which in the winter, is a huge time savings to heat up the mash water.

What are the concerns with using water directly from your hot water heater? Are they valid or just 'umm.. I'm just not sure about it".

Would it makes a difference if it were a gas fired (oil/natural gas/etc) hot water tank vs. electric?

Discuss.

[Jayme]

I think it's advisable not to drink it as they usually sit at a temp where bacteria can grow, but your boiling it anyhow - so who cares... The only potential issue id see is off flavours - particularly chlorine, unless you've got a carbon block you can run hot water through.


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[jason.loxton]

I often do this and I am not dead. (I also add camden tablets for the chloramine.)

[CorneliusAlphonse]

I don't do it, I use cold tap water even in the dead of winter. Potential for contaminants is too unquantified for me to risk it(eg do they use food grade materials in the construction?)

[AllanMar]

I don't do it, I use cold tap water even in the dead of winter. Potential for contaminants is too unquantified for me to risk it(eg do they use food grade materials in the construction?)

Domestic Hot water is still classified as potable water as far as I'm aware so it shouldn't be an issue with materials. Main thing i've read is they can collect minerals which can effect brewing and also there has been some stuff published about lead in plumbing being increased on the hot water side (if you have an old home). It's basically a big tank where things can collect (although I doubt much that is actually harmful, I suppose there is some chance it could effect taste).

Quite a few people seem to do it without complaint though (which I'm not surprised), I have no concern drinking my hot water, but I don't use it for brewing (doesn't seem worth the effort for me). I have a on demand natural gas hot water heater, and I expect that these things would be less of a concern then a tank heater.

[GuingesRock]

I tried Googling this. Apparently hot water with prolonged contact extracts metals, chemicals, and impurities from the pipes, fittings and boiler. Hot water tanks and systems are not designed for drinking water, and not sure they would be required to meet food grade standards. The biggest concern is lead (link to US Environmental Protection Agency) extracted from brass, copper, solder, or worse…lead piping by the hot water. Fanatical tea and coffee drinkers won’t use hot tap water because of chemical and metallic tastes. The mineral content of boiler water might be unsuitable for mashing. You can’t run hot water through a carbon filter.

I remember having an office water dispenser that had a blue tap for chilled water, and a red tap for hot water for tea/coffee. I couldn’t drink the hot water from that thing and sent it back. It had a strong chemical/plastic flavour. I think the hot water sat for long periods in a plastic tank inside the machine.

I wonder if there is an instant under-the-sink hot water heater that is available for hot drinking water.

[chalmers]

I use hot water to fill the HLT to save time/effort. I'm not dead yet, but here's hoping!

[AllanMar]

I'm not sure where everyone gets the info that hot water is not considered potable water... The National Plumbing code applies the same standard, and same as in a building that has grey water capability, by code any taps that are non-potable have to have signage stating that it is not potable water... Do you really think in this we have to protect everyone society they would allow non-potable and potable water to be side by side in your kitchen?

They sell those instant hot water pumps that circ your hot water back through your cold water pipes after all...

[GuingesRock]

I'm not sure where everyone gets the info that hot water is not considered potable water... The National Plumbing code applies the same standard, and same as in a building that has grey water capability, by code any taps that are non-potable have to have signage stating that it is not potable water... Do you really think in this we have to protect everyone society they would allow non-potable and potable water to be side by side in your kitchen?

They sell those instant hot water pumps that circ your hot water back through your cold water pipes after all...

Do you know what year that code came into effect? Important information because only houses built after that date would comply, similarly piping, fittings and hot water tanks manufactured after that date should be ok from what you say.

Do you have any comment on the US Environmental Protection Agency advice not to drink hot water because even legally classified "lead free" copper can be up to 8% lead. They are also concerned about brass which they see as a bigger problem when in prolonged contact with hot water: http://water.epa.gov/drink/info/lead/index.cfm

[AllanMar]

I don't follow the plumbing code regularly, so I cannot state years. However as far as I know domestic hot water has for a long time been considered potable water. The standards for potable water have changed over the years though.

The concern about contaminants/bacteria are valid ones, and I'm not arguing them. All I'm saying is that domestic hot water is considered potable.

As far as the lead goes.. As I said in the previous post...

Main thing i've read is they can collect minerals which can effect brewing and also there has been some stuff published about lead in plumbing being increased on the hot water side (if you have an old home).

[chalmers]

Mark, the EPA page you link to does not advise not to drink hot water. They say that hot water can increase the amount of lead, due to corrosion.

So then I went on Health Canada's site to find their recommendation. Contrary to what I was expecting, Health Canada DOES advise against using hot water to drink or cook. I'm honestly surprised by that. They also suggest running your water for a while before using it, to reduce the chance of lead. I think this would hold mostly for houses built before 1950 (lead pipes common), or 1990 (before lead solder was taken out of the Plumbing Code).

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/en ... eng.php#a4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mr x]

There could be issues with metals leached from the heater elements. They can corrode quite a bit...

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[GuingesRock]

I devised a simple test this morning:

I let the hot tap run until the water ran hot and then filled a cup of water from the hot tap, first thing this morning, after no hot water had been run all night, and let it cool on the counter a bit and then drank some.

It tasted horrible!

If a few more people would try that, and if they found the same, we might get a bit closer to solving this issue.

I'm out now any way, and will never wonder about this again. I have contemplated it before, and I think I have done it in the past also.

One important caveat: in my situation is I have a carbon filter on my cold tap supply. So this experiment definitely needs repeating by others. My hot tap was putrid enough to stop me in my tracks. Very unfortunate that you can’t plumb in a carbon filter on the hot side under the sink.

[AllanMar]

What issue are we trying to solve? I would suspect this is just going to be a fact, unless people want to get in to flushing/replacing their hot water heaters/etc.

I can't notice any taste difference between my hot/cold water, when both at room temp (neither is filtered). But I have a newer home with a tankless hot water heater, so this is going to be a very very subjective test.

Regardless, I still don't use it for brewing (no great reason). Although i've got 10kW in a keggle, so it doesn't take me very long to heat the water.

[TimG]

Good discussion guys. It seems to me the only real valid concerns are:

1) Lead (old homes, long runs of piping, water sits in piping before entering mash directly).. luckily for me I can tap into the tank directly off the outlet, no long runs of piping or solder/lead to worry about. So that one may be a concern to some, but not me.

2) Bacteria growth in hot water that has been sitting a long time in the tank.. As Jayme said, we're boiling it so I'm not sure this is an issue. Also, if this were a valid issue I'm not sure I'd want to be washing dishes and/or showering in water with a bunch of bacteria in it?

3) Minerals collecting in the tank.. I guess I can see how many they can settle out and become concentrated? Possibly a good flush (with a certain mixture of.. whatever, CLR? ha) a couple times a year solves this issue (and would likely be good for the tank)

4) Breaking down of the electric element.. fair, but they are cheap and you should replace them anyway then. Also not an issue for me as I have a natural gas HWH

5) If I was concerned about chlorine (which actually the levels used here aren't bad at all.. and have made all my latest brews with unfiltered water), could I not install a filter on the cold side inlet to the hot water tank?

So.. it looks like issue 3) is likely my only real concern here. I"d be curious to hear what Nash has to say about the mineral content issue. Is this something I could test (ph or something.. mechanical engineer, not chemical)? Then just add the various 'other minerals' to counteract? I don't' believe the mineral issue is a health one, seeing as a certain amount of the right minerals are good for us?

Good discussion guys!

[mr x]

Bacteria growth should only be a concern if you are on a well, as municipal water is treated.

[AllanMar]

I'm not sure if the minerals collecting in HW heaters is a myth or not. You'd have to get a mineral test done (AG College in Truro?) perhaps have both your hot & cold water tested, you'd practically be a mythbuster then. You could also see about lead and some bacteria levels (although I agree with X, only really a concern for well)?

[Ladd]

I am assuming this concern is mainly for electric hot water heaters? I have an indirect oil fired hot water heater which is basically just a 41 gallon tank with a coil running through it, much like a HERMES. My boiler heats up the water and pumps it through the coil indirectly heating the water in the tank. I do know that minerals do build up on the coils as it needs to be descaled with phosphoric acid every so often to keep it running efficiently. My family is pretty large too, with 6 of us creating laundry, dishes and showering, so the hot water doesn't hang around in the tank for very long. We cook and use the hot water for tea and coffee and I have never noticed any off flavors. I have always used it for brewing as well. I'll have to try Marks test to see if there is any difference between my hot and cold water... This may be one of my "ah-ha!" moments...

[GuingesRock]

Concern about nickel on heating elements: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2003 ... e.research

One in ten have a nickel allergy. Might also be of some concern to electric brewers who don't have stainless steel elements.

The everyday habit of making a cup of tea may be contributing to a health problem that affects up to one in 10 Britons.

The government is to launch research into whether using boiled water from old-style electric kettles is worsening skin allergies through nickel leaching off exposed elements.

Those who filter their water first might be exposing themselves to the greatest risk. The resulting liquid seems to be more acidic, resulting in greater concentrations of nickel dissolving into the water, although further work is being commissioned on this issue.

Even before the studies start however, consumers suffering allergic reaction to nickel will be advised by the food standards agency and drinking water inspectorate not to buy new kettles with exposed elements. Most are thought to be women who react to nickel-coated jewellery.

The warning will hasten the switch to models with covered elements, usually in the base of kettles. It is extremely difficult to tell the difference between those with nickel coating and stainless steel alternatives.

Several manufacturers began phasing out the old-style models some years ago although it was not clear last night how many of the 6 million kettles sold each year still had exposed elements.

Scientific advisers on toxicity have concluded that the over all health risk is not serious, although high exposure to those already sensitive to nickel may worsen their skin reaction.

Of the eight models of kettle with exposed elements tested by the drinking water inspectorate, only one had a stainless steel element rather than one which included nickel in the coating. This one, bought from Woolworths, showed the lowest nickel level reading.

But scientific advisers called in to study the results warned against coming to conclusions beyond that "boiling water in some types of kettle may result in elevated levels of nickel in the water".

They said: "Since absorption of nickel from beverages such as tea, or ingested with food is greatly reduced compared with absorption from water alone, information is required on the ways in which boiled water may be consumed and the amounts consumed."

The findings coincide with EU-wide reviews devoted to setting "safe" limits for nickel, the use of which is being discouraged because in very large quantities it has been associated with nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, headaches and wheezing.

Inhalation of nickel or nickel compounds has also been linked to increased risk of lung cancer.

Michael Rouse, of the drinking water inspectorate, said further research was being commissioned. "Tap water is perfectly good. It is how it is affected after the tap."

[GuingesRock]

Sorry, Here's another one. Copper toxicity from copper plumbing. Especially hot water left in contact with copper piping: http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/w ... opper.html

Copper in Drinking Water
Health Effects and How to Reduce Exposure
Download a print version of this document: Copper in Drinking Water (PDF: 370KB/1 page)
In 1991, the U. S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) established rules for controlling lead and copper levels in public water supplies. Since that time, water systems across the country have been sampling water in the homes of their customers to determine if there is a problem. Enclosed is information on copper in drinking water: why it is cause for concern, how it enters water, and how you and your family can reduce your exposure to it.

Copper is a reddish metal that occurs naturally in rock, soil, water, sediment, and air. It has many practical uses in our society and is commonly found in coins, electrical wiring, and pipes. It is an essential element for living organisms, including humans, and-in small amounts-necessary in our diet to ensure good health. However, too much copper can cause adverse health effects, including vomiting, diarrhea, stomach cramps, and nausea. It has also been associated with liver damage and kidney disease.

The human body has a natural mechanism for maintaining the proper level of copper in it. However, children under one year old have not yet developed this mechanism and, as a result, are more vulnerable to the toxic effects of copper. People with Wilson's disease also have a problem with maintaining the proper balance and should also exercise particular care in limiting exposure to copper.

Water is one of the ways that copper may enter our bodies. The EPA has established an "action level" for copper in drinking water. This action level is exceeded if the level of copper in more than 10 percent of the tap water samples collected by a water system is greater than 1,300 micrograms per liter (or 1,300 parts per billion). You may wish to check with your water supplier for the results of the copper testing it did. Steps should be taken to reduce exposure if this level of 1,300 parts per billion is exceeded.

This level has been set to protect against acute toxic effects in humans. However, it is not protective against copper toxicity in sensitive members of the population, such as those with Wilson’s disease, who will have to further limit their intake of copper from all sources.

How can I reduce my exposure to copper?
Copper works its way into the water by dissolving from copper pipes in the household plumbing. The longer the water has stood idle in the pipes, the more copper it is likely to have absorbed. (Newer homes with copper pipes may be more likely to have a problem. Over time, a coating forms on the inside of the pipes and can insulate the water from the copper in the pipes. In newer homes, this coating has not yet had a chance to develop.) Thus, anytime the water has not been used for more than six hours-overnight, for example, or during the day when people have been gone to work or school-it should be cleared from the pipes before being used for drinking or cooking.

This can be achieved by letting the cold water faucet run until you can feel the water getting colder-usually 30 to 60 seconds. This must be done before taking drinking water from any faucet in the house.

In addition, hot water dissolves copper more quickly than cold water; as a result, water to be used for drinking or cooking should not be drawn from the hot water tap. If you need hot water for cooking or drinking, take water from the cold tap and heat it. It is especially important not to use the hot water for making baby formula.

What is my local water supplier doing about copper?
Water supply systems that have exceeded the federal “action level” of 1,300 parts per billion of copper are taking a number of steps to deal with the problem. These include testing the source water for contamination and treating the water to make it less corrosive or less likely to absorb copper from the plumbing.

I'm also personally concerned about hot water and plastics. They only recently discovered the toxic effects of BPA.

Lead, Nickel, Copper, chlorine and Plastic

[GuingesRock]

TimG, I think your idea might work. Maybe replace the elements with SS ones so no nickel. Carbon filter ahead of the tank and tap your mash water right from the tank. Can you set your tank to mash strike temperature? will it go that high? Higher risk of scalds esp for young children. Less risk of legionella though: http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/ ... -heater-to
What is the tank made of? If it is old copper that has a coating on it it might deliver less copper.
Ready to go mash water might be great, and one less vessel to contend with.
Should the rest of us have hot water tanks in our brewing areas set at strike water temperature. Hot water tanks are inexpensive. They could be filled and turned on the night before so the water isn’t sitting in them hot for long periods of time. Stainless steel hot water tanks are available.
Here's a 10 gal tank I think could be plugged into a socket overnight 1500watt. A few trial runs filling up the mash pot until the temp setting on the tank is high enough. That is if it can be set high enough.

[AllanMar]

I think the copper panic is unfounded. Sure high concentrations of copper aren't good for you, but I seriously doubt on average if you had your water tested you'd find you have levels at what the article is concerned about.

Lets not forget about copper cookware, copper kettles/stills, etc etc. How many people here are running their much higher temp wort through copper chillers? If you're concerned about copper and brewing I think the hot water is the least of your concerns.

You'd need a bigger hot water heater then that. Unless your going to rig up a gravity/pump drain. The cold water coming in will cool the hot water, and you'd never get near that amount of hot water from the tank. The use of on-demand hot water heaters in small startup breweries seems pretty common.

[GuingesRock]

Yes I thought a larger tank would be needed because of that, so it’s not economical to have a dedicated tank for brewing because you would end up heating much more water than needed. 140F seems to be the max for on demand water heaters...not worth the effort and expense for home brewing.

[AllanMar]

Yea, it seems like if your really determined to save time and don't want to use your DHW, youd be better off investing in more heating power for your kettles.

[bluenose]

I wouldn't use hot water from a tank, but I would from an on-demand system

hot water tanks and elements corrode over time, they all do... that's why Health Canada (or whomever) advises against using domestic hot water from tanks for drinking and cooking.

keep in mind that a watt is a watt, so the only savings is time in that the hot water is waiting on standby, but you're paying to keep it in that warm heating pattern over time. Heating it up as you need it for brewing saves the wasted energy from keeping the water hot until you're ready to use it. That's another plus for on-demand systems, even if the are hellish expensive for strictly brewing purposes.

YMMV,