Beer line infection?

[TimG]

I don't want to 'lead the witness' here.. but here is a description of the situation:

- simple Pale ale, few weeks in the bucket (no secondary, no dry hops).. cold crashed and kegged
- sanitized keg with star san (blew it out the beer connection)
- carbed for 5-6 days
- sanitized beer lines/taps with star san
- Sunday beer tasted great right away, light with a subtle hop character (the intent)
- Monday beer tasted good again (though a couple people thought it tasted different than Sunday)
- Tuesday beer tasted off.. significant apple juice smell, taste was a bit 'cidery' and no more hops (overpowered by cidery taste)

I only tasted on Sun/Tues

Could this be an infection from insufficiently cleaned beer line/taps? It was a used keg fridge/taps (not mine) but I assumed the star san would have been sufficient.

Thoughts?

[Targos]

First thing I would check is a pour with a known clean tap maybe a picnic tap.

That would narrow the problem down to the serving side...

Now that I think about it more it might originate in the line and contaminate the keg as well so that idea is probably not too useful...

Good luck with it!

[mr x]

Not sure, but I usually use boiling water in my kegs before star-san. One gallon and turn it upside down.

[TimG]

I did clean the keg with oxi-clean prior to filling.. I'm tending to think it was the beer lines more than anything.

Is the apple juice smell an indication of anything in particular?

[Jayme]

Sounds like a wild yeast maybe... I'm surprised the the tap lines would feedback much if you had the keg under pressure, let alone have enough gunk left in them to turn the beer quite that fast - and it would be semi surprising for just the lines alone to taint the beer that much just passing through. Were they looking severely nasty before you ran the starsan through?

[mr x]

I find It shocking for a cold beer to go off so fast.

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[GuingesRock]

Not sure, but I usually use boiling water in my kegs before star-san. One gallon and turn it upside down.

I’m very interested in this comment. CartoonCod came around and tasted my beer and detected some acidity in my older kegged beers, and I definitely noticed some deterioration myself with time, so much so that I loved them for the first couple of weeks and then went of them. I thought it was because I was brewing nicer and nicer beers and getting spoilt, but not so! When he pointed it out, they had in fact become acidic.

CartoonCod said that he worked at Garrison for a day, and the only way the head brewer found he could deal with this, was to run 80C water through everything. Little collections of crud hide in places and hold infection and are immune to sanitizers, I’ve also heard of faulty keg welds causing problems. I’m fairly comfortable with the fermentor side of things because I ferment in the kettle, and everything is held at 100c during the 90 minute boil, including the ball valve which is hooked up as close to the pot as possible. I put the lid in the oven. I have no plastic buckets with nasty spigots. My main insecurity is the tube that goes from the ball valve to the keg, and the keg itself. I’m thinking of adopting your practice X. Did you find it makes a difference to the quality of your beer?

I think the boiling water could be used after the starsan to rinse it out.

My other question is, would dry hops in the keg help with this issue, since hops are highly anticeptic?

[mr x]

I have no idea if it works, but I know this. Heat trumps all. I've used caustic in kegs after cleaning and star-saning. It picks up dirt. There's lots of crevices around the lid. Afaiac, the only way to guarantee sanitation is heat.

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[GuingesRock]

I have no idea if it works, but I know this. Heat trumps all. I've used caustic in kegs after cleaning and star-saning. It picks up dirt. There's lots of crevices around the lid. Afaiac, the only way to guarantee sanitation is heat.

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That makes me wonder if boiling some water in the kegs with the poppet valves held open would do the trick nicely. It would have to be kegs without rubber bottoms.

Like these cheap ones that I have (and love) from OBK.

[mr x]

Just pour boiling water in the kegs and turn them upside down.

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[GuingesRock]

Just pour boiling water in the kegs and turn them upside down.

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I'm worried about the posts and poppet valve assemblies. I suppose I could run boiling water through them when the kegs are inverted.

That's what I'll start doing...thanks!

[mr x]

They'll get hot enough.

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[GuingesRock]

They'll get hot enough.

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OK, I'll take your word for it.

That's a pretty simple process for peace of mind.

[mr x]

When you fill the keg shake it good. The water will gas off and seal the keg. Snap a liquid out post on if you want to run a bit of water through it. Then invert and leave for a while.

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[GuingesRock]

Sounds good. Thanks!

I wonder if I should use silicone tubing to run the beer into the keg and boil it in the same pot of water I'm going to use in the kegs...or is that taking things a bit too far?

[mr x]

I run boiling water through all my tubing/racking canes before and after use.

[GuingesRock]

I think that's smart.

You have a convert

[Juniper Hill]

I'll have to try that boiling water trick. Sounds like a great idea.

[GuingesRock]

What would be the most practical and most sanitary way to attach a hose to transfer beer from a ball valve to a keg, I’m thinking of switching to ½” silicone so I can boil the hose.

I have been using a length of tube that has a quick disconnect on it that I soak in a bucket of Starsan. It’s a 10 gal batch, so after I have filled the first keg I pull out the tube with my hand and put it into the second keg. I first dunk my hand in the starsan bucket. My starsan dunked hand touches the side of the tube when I do that. I spray inside the open end of the ball valve with Starsan before I start. I’m trying to rethink this.

Perhaps I should have a separate tube for each keg for starters. I am also thinking I should boil the tube with the quick connect on it. The ball valve is heated at 100C for 90 minutes during the boil, as I ferment in the kettle, but kegging occurs several days later and there is time for contamination to creep into the ball valve from the outside. I had been putting a screw-in stopper into the outside opening of the ball valve before the boil and removing it just as I am ready to transfer the beer. I don’t know how much that helps though, and lately I have been removing it to check SG to know when to keg, so that’s a recipe for disaster I’m sure as there may be beer sitting there for a day or two, and a few blasts of starsan into the outside opening of the tap won’t necessarily do the trick.

I’m hoping someone might have some ideas and suggestions as to how I could make this system work better, without me having to change to a complete new system, or switch to using a syphon etc.

I hope you don't mind me asking this on your thread TimG, but I think it's a related question.

Pictures of what I have been using attached.

Thanks

[mr x]

Don't transfer your beer through anything that hasn't been heat sanitized within a couple minutes. Siphon from your kettle.

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[jeffsmith]

I put a liquid disconnect on the end of my siphon tubing and purge the keg with co2. Then open the pressure relief valve and fill the keg via the liquid dip tube. Keeps the system pretty near closed.

[GuingesRock]

I put a liquid disconnect on the end of my siphon tubing and purge the keg with co2. Then open the pressure relief valve and fill the keg via the liquid dip tube. Keeps the system pretty near closed.

Interesting! I wonder if it would be worth me installing a ball lock post on to the ball valve and then kegging like you say, but with a keg jumper. I’d have a closed system too, and also I could take samples for gravity readings at will from the post on the kettle by snapping on a line with a picnic tap on it. For that matter, if there was a ball lock post on the kettle, I wouldn’t need a ball valve at all. Is there such a thing as a larger size ball lock post, or similar device that would work?

Blichmann conicals have ball valves on them, I think, maybe I'm fussing too much.

[GuingesRock]

Just pour boiling water in the kegs and turn them upside down.

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Kegging today and I’m having a go at this technique of yours. I have my spare pot with a ball valve on the stove with some water in it coming up to the boil. In the pot of water I have my kegging tube (now silicone) with its SS quick connector attached. I’ll boil everything for 15 minutes and then run boiling water into the kegs, through the silicone tube, then I will throw the tube in the Starsan bucket until I’m ready, seal the kegs, shake them, I may run some hot water through the outpost, then I’ll invert the kegs.

I’m tempted to throw the keg lids with their gaskets and pressure valves into the boil as well. Would it damage them?

You'll probably say not necessary, actually probably that's right, because I'll be inverting the kegs and letting the water sit against them.

[mr x]

Yup. Although I have thrown them in boiling water with the relief valve when filling.

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[GuingesRock]

The posts and the lid get very hot, very quickly, once the kegs are inverted. The sides and bottom of the keg are also too hot to touch. I’m very pleased with this.

Thanks for the tip! Might buy you a pint some time for that!