Making Real Ale

[GuingesRock]

Really good Brewing Network podcast (click download MP3 button and skip the first 20% to when Paul Pendyck comes on ): http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/898

[GuingesRock]

I researched Real Ale before and got quite excited about it. I posted some of the links above. I really liked the first three videos above, very entertaining and a good introduction to real ale.

I started trying to make real ale, but in the end, I just started kegging my beer after 1 week single stage ferment (I got that from the real ale breweries I visited in England), and I turned up the controller so my keezer is at cellar temperature, 12-14C (54-57F).

I don’t force carbonate the beer, but I do hook the keg to constant CO2 at a pressure just high enough to enable pouring of the beer. I thought there can’t be much difference between a cask breather and a CO2 tank set as low as possible. Also I don’t have to use beer engines, my alternative to the beer engine is to pour the beer from a height…not quite the same effect I know, but it will do. A Blichmann gun itself, without using the CO2 button, might be another alternative to using a beer engine, since it would enable pouring to the bottom of the glass (that's how you pour real ale) and the beer comes out of the end with a spray if you don't pull the trigger too far. That setup might simulate a beer engine + sparkler.

I found I needed to keep CO2 on the keg constantly, as when I didn’t, the kegs started developing negative pressure due, I thought, to CO2 dissolving in the beer, and the keg would suck in air when the cobra tap was opened, and I would have to purge the keg with CO2.

I call this “real ale simulation”

…I’m still working on this. I think I may stop putting CO2 on the keg altogether, I can feel CAMRAs breaths down my neck. I will purge the air out of the keg's head space initially though. I think I maybe got the negative pressure because I had the beer in the fridge. I'm going to try kegging after a week and leaving the kegs at room temperature for another two weeks, so it stays “alive”. Then maybe I will bottle it with the Blichmann gun or put the keg in the keezer set to cellar temperature at that point. Alternatively, after the two weeks I could move it to another keg with a jumper. My interest in bottling from the keg or moving to another keg after 2 weeks, is that by then the beer should have largely cleared and I can leave the yeast behind, watching the tube and shutting off the transfer when the beer starts getting cloudy. That way I won’t have to use finings in the keg and there shouldn’t be much sediment in the bottles either. If I keep it in the kegs, it will either have to be vented and drunk within 2 – 3 days or hooked up to C02 at low pressure to dispense. Another alternative would be to vent the keg and gravity pour it, and then purge the air out of the keg with CO2 after each drinking session.

I’m after those fine bubbles, soft smooth carbonation and enhanced flavours.

Does anyone make real ale? Or anything approaching it? Or any suggestions how I can better simulate real ale in the home brew setting using Corny kegs?

Any thoughts? I’m getting on this today with another batch of my “Champagne Cascade”.

Any one feel like getting their hands wet with this and working on it as well.

[gm-]

Have you thought about getting real casks and one of these gizmos?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/aspirator-valve.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers,
Jon

[LiverDance]

Honestly I've never really did any reading on what "Real Ale" is so I have no idea. I think it's just beer naturally carbonated and served without additional co2? Care to learn me sumpin?

[GuingesRock]

Have you thought about getting real casks and one of these gizmos?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/aspirator-valve.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers,
Jon

Hi Jon, that’s a cask breather and it’s a good idea. I thought setting the CO2 as low as possible (my alternative to that) might give a similar result. Maybe it won't and maybe I should get one. It won't provide enough pressure to actually pour the beer from a Corny though.

I read lots about people doing real ale in Cornys. You can lay them on their side on a slant with the short dip tube on the bottom. It would be really cool to have a rack of pins, or firkins on display and pour from them (hooked up to a cask breather)….some day!….dream emoticon.

I keep editing this. I think that's a cask breather any way. It says it supplies CO2 at "just above atmospheric pressure". I should be close to that with the normal CO2 regulator turned right down, so the beer just pours, like I do.

[GuingesRock]

Honestly I've never really did any reading on what "Real Ale" is so I have no idea. I think it's just beer naturally carbonated and served without additional co2? Care to learn me sumpin?

If you have time, Watch Michael Jackson's three short videos in the first post.

If you have a bit more time take a trip to England maybe and spend all your time in the pubs...I'll come too.

If you have even longer, wait until I get this sorted, if I do, and then come around for a few

This might give some more insight: http://www.anchoratwalberswick.com/page/cellarmanship

There are lots of different brewing/fermenting techniques from sour beer and open fermentation to lagering, all of which I never really did any reading on either. I recently had the opportunity to look into real ale more when I went back to the UK, although I had been playing around with this for a couple of months before that. If I had gone to Germany or Belgium, I might be learning sumpin on lagering instead right now.

[GuingesRock]

Can anyone help me with the selection of a suitable yeast for real ale and a source for it please. I prefer dried yeast if possible, but may have to switch. So far I have been using US-05. I want to stick to DIPA’s with base malt (MO or Pilsen) for now as that is what I know, and I want to keep my variables to a minimum until I am confident with this. The yeast needs to undergo secondary fermentation in the cask (or in my case the corny) at cellar temperature (12C), although I haven’t totally figured out yet if I am OK to keep the casks at room temperature for 2 weeks and then move to cellar temperature. It would be nice, I think, to have the “casks” working away in the cellar temperature fridge. Maybe a combination of the two would work, as from what I saw in England, the casks are filled after 1 week primary ferment, trucked to the pubs at normal temperatures, and don’t get to the cellar until they reach the pub where the cellarman takes over the management of the final fermentation in the cask. Yeast selection might be crucial I think, both in terms of function and character. There doesn’t seem to be a good book on making real ale from start to finish, unless someone knows of one? My book on cellarmanship arrives today, but I don’t think it will have anything on yeast.

Also, does anyone know much about water? I have our water profile, but I don’t understand it. I will look for it later and see if I can post it. I need to know if I should add any Burton salts (I have some). I think the water in Wolfville is quite hard and might be just right…but that’s only a guess.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[gm-]

The Safale S-04 is the english ale yeast equivalent to US-05, so that might be a good starting point. It should also be readily available in most homebrewshops.

For something more authentic, you might want to try Wyeast 1026PC, British Cask Ale
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is a liquid yeast, and you probably have to get Noble grape to order it in for you.

[LiverDance]

Here is a good article on how a homebrewer may go about it.

http://byo.com/stories/item/594-enjoy-t ... tioned-ale" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mr x]

Johnnymac is set up with a cask, breather and handpump. Be warned, there has been an 'episode', lol.

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[GuingesRock]

-GM, that's given me some good leads. Thanks for the help. I've used US-04 before. I'll research and get back. It's a bit crazy at work just now.

LiverDance, That looks like it's going to be really good. I'll read it later and get back. Thanks for the help.

Thanks Mr. X. I'm really curious now. I wonder if Johnnymac would post something, or has he written it up on here already? I did a search for real ale before and didn't find anything.

[GuingesRock]

Here is a good article on how a homebrewer may go about it.

http://byo.com/stories/item/594-enjoy-t ... tioned-ale" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Awesome article!!! Thanks a lot!

Just one useful quote of many in there.

Because most American bars are not equipped to handle English casks, brewers who make real ale are faced with similar packaging challenges. At Yards as at most other micros producing real ale, the Hoff-Stevens keg is the compromise vessel. In a Hoff-Stevens keg the dip tube does not go to the very bottom of the vessel, hence yeast sediment is left to continue to work its magic as the beer is consumed.

“We started selling our beer as ‘cask conditioned,’ but a number of customers called us to the mat, noticing the beer was kegged, not casked. Now we refer to it as ‘keg’ conditioned and that seems to be more technically correct, especially for our clients who are not using beer engines,” Bovit says.

[GuingesRock]

The Safale S-04 is the english ale yeast equivalent to US-05, so that might be a good starting point. It should also be readily available in most homebrewshops.

For something more authentic, you might want to try Wyeast 1026PC, British Cask Ale
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is a liquid yeast, and you probably have to get Noble grape to order it in for you.

Thanks GM-, 1026PC has a low alcohol tolerance which might be a problem for me. Also requires a higher temperature, also a problem. Maybe I should use the US-04 (unless there are other suggestions), and keg for secondary fermentation and conditioning after 3-4 days as it ferments rapidly? It also has higher flocculation which might be good. I wonder about diacetyl with US-04, it's suspicious that Safeale say 05 is low diacetyl and say nothing about 04....Oh well, it's supposed to be the Diacetyl capitol around here (one of X's comments about Sea Level), so might as well join in...or should I stick with 05 I wonder ...I'm confused about all of this.

US-05 Ready-to-pitch American ale yeast for well balanced beers with low diacetyl and a very crisp end palate. Fermentation temp 12-25C ideally 15-22C.

US-04 English Ale yeast displaying fast fermentation and excellent sedimentation (flocculation) properties. Fermentation 12-25C, ideally 15-20C

YEAST STRAIN: 1026 PC | British Cask Ale 3QTR13- A great choice for any cask conditioned British Ale. Produces nice malt profile with a hint of fruit. Finishes dry and slightly tart.
Flocculation: Medium-High
Attenuation: 74-77%
Temperature Range: 63-72F, 17-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 10% ABV

Edit: quote from Chalmers in another thread:

Just a note: most of the beers on tap at Port Pub are low in diacetyl (lucky guy!), but the cans that make it to Halifax are hit and miss (so much so that I won't buy them anymore). Bottles of Picaroons are subject to diacetyl too, if you can find some.

[mr x]

1968, or an equivalent that drops hard. Thames valley, etc...but a 10% alcohol tolerance is pretty good. Do you want barleywine on cask?

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[dean2k]

...Oh well, it's supposed to be the Diacetyl capitol around here (one of X's comments about Sea Level), so might as well join in...or should I stick with 05 I wonder ...I'm confused about all of this.

What;s wrong with a little butterscotch in an english bitter? Though I've never had an issue with S-04.

(however, I seem to be unable to properly pick up diacetyl flavours so what do I know?)

[GuingesRock]

1968, or an equivalent that drops hard. Thames valley, etc...but a 10% alcohol tolerance is pretty good. Do you want barleywine on cask?

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Thanks, Looks interesting. Not sure I like the sound of "slightly sweeter" and lower attenuation, I like dry IPA. Higher temperature required. I just re-read the article LiverDance posted and they recommend keeping the cask/keg at fermentation temp for an appropriate time, so that's ok . It must work because it's advertised for cask conditioning...Some of my beers are 9.5%, so that's OK then.

A very good cask conditioned ale strain, this extremely flocculant yeast produces distinctly malty beers. Attenuation levels are typically less than most other yeast strains which results in a slightly sweeter finish. Ales produced with this strain tend to be fruity, increasingly so with higher fermentation temperatures of 70-74°F (21-23° C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete. Bright beers are easily achieved within days without any filtration.

Origin:
Flocculation: Very High
Attenuation: 67-71%
Temperature Range: 64-72F, 18-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 9% ABV

[mr x]

Thames valley or 1028(I think that's the number).

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[GuingesRock]

...Oh well, it's supposed to be the Diacetyl capitol around here (one of X's comments about Sea Level), so might as well join in...or should I stick with 05 I wonder ...I'm confused about all of this.

What;s wrong with a little butterscotch in an english bitter? Though I've never had an issue with S-04.

(however, I seem to be unable to properly pick up diacetyl flavours so what do I know?)

Thanks that's good to know. I used 04 a couple of times, can't remember why I went back to 05. I think it's because the yeast cake was so firm it prevented the beer passing through the bazooka. (I ferment in the kettle and leave the hops in, and have the Bazooka to keep the leaf hops out), but with a shorter primary fermentation time (I'm thinking 3 days), that might not be a problem.

[GuingesRock]

I brewed a batch with US-05 on Sunday. I think I'll cut 1 1/2 inches off the dip tubes (mentioned in LD's article) and keg it tomorrow, leave at room temperature for maybe 2 weeks then into the cellar temp fridge and see what happens. Meanwhile I might get some US-04 in. That's a pretty good pipeline. I need to read the book on cellarmanship to fine tune this.

If I keg after 3 days, that will have the same effect as skimming the yeast at high krusen, except I will be taking the beer from under it. Kegging (casking) before the end of primary fermentation, according to that article, has flavour advantages.

A common perception in the homebrew community is that bottle or cask-conditioned beer is better simply because it’s naturally carbonated. That’s only half the story.

Oliver reminds homebrewers that “conditioning” and “carbonation” do not mean the same thing. “Conditioning involves a lot more than just carbonation,” he says. “That’s only one element of the cask-conditioning process. What’s as important is the fact that secondary fermentation takes place. That produces a whole new set of flavors, aromas, and other characteristics in the beer that are absent in beer conditioned by other means. For example many esters that would normally be vented out during fermentation are trapped in the cask and dissolved into the beer, affecting overall flavor and aroma.”

[mr x]

Oliver needs a kick in the balls. That whole quote is totally in contradiction....

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[GuingesRock]

Oliver needs a kick in the balls. That whole quote is totally in contradiction....

Poor Oliver, He’s American, but at least he’s trying. I liked the whole article though because it’s practical and seems unbiased. I think it is about how the Americans try to simulate real ale, which is what I’m trying to do, and their methods bring what might be a reasonable simulation within reach of the home brewer. They use the term “keg conditioned beer” because they got yelled at for calling it “cask conditioned” when it was in a keg.

[GuingesRock]

I wonder if one of these could be used in place of a beer engine to dispense beer sort of real ale style. It would pour to the bottom of the glass, and if you held the tip of it against the glass at the bottom it might create a sparkler effect if required.

I think I might try that with constant CO2 on the keg with the regulator set to a pressure that just enables pouring, slightly above atmospheric pressure, like a cask breather. If necessary the pressure could be increased for pouring, to say 5 PSI for brief periods only, so as not to start force carbonating the beer. That might not be necessary though.

[GuingesRock]

The other thing is…if the beer is conditioned and naturally carbonated in the keg and the keg has become under pressure from the CO2 produced by fermentation, there is CO2 above the beer, in the head space, at high pressure, maybe even at 30psi. That CO2 is the same CO2 that is in a CO2 tank, CO2 is CO2 and there are no different types of it. Once the beer is conditioned and secondarily fermented in the keg, would it really matter if you hooked it up to a tank at 5psi and left it on 5psi from then on, to enable pouring at will? I think it wont make a blind bit of difference at that stage of the game.

Eureka

The normal way is to soft spile an hard spile and fiddle around trying to get the CO2 pressure in the cask just right. That's done after fermentation and conditioning are completed in the cask. At that stage, instead, I'm going to hook up my CO2 tank to my keg full of "keg conditioned" and "naturally carbonated" beer, maybe vent a little if necessary, and then adjust the dial on my regulator to get it just so. I will be able to pour at will, and there will be no oxidation or "spoiling" of the beer.

[GuingesRock]

I think I could call that Real Ale. The definition of real ale is being bent slightly and relaxed, with the use of cask breathers, which is serving with extraneous CO2. I think I could get away with it. My friend in the UK has a pub serving real ale. His pub is CAMRA approved and inspected, and has a cask breather setup. I just emailed him for more info on that.

I also wonder if a tank of nitrogen instead, to serve the beer, might comply fully with the definition below.

Real ale is the name coined by the Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA) in 1973 for a type of beer defined as "beer brewed from traditional ingredients, matured by secondary fermentation in the container from which it is dispensed, and served without the use of extraneous carbon dioxide". The heart of the definition is the maturation requirements. If the beer is unfiltered, unpasteurised and still active on the yeast, it is a real ale; it is irrelevant whether the container is a cask or a bottle.

[mr x]

Iirc if you try pure nitrogen, your beer goes flat over time. Cheaper to use a cask breather anyway.

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