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So up until this point, I've been using a new pack of yeast for each brew. I know you can reuse yeast from an existing batch, but it's not recommended to reuse yeast from higher gravity beers (which 90% of my brews have been). So is it fine to take a new pack of yeast, make low gravity starter, then take the whole starter and split/wash it and store in multiple containers to make new starters?

So basically start out with 1 pack>Make starter>Split starter into multiple jars>Take one jar for brew day & make a new starter>Pitch starter

The main reason for asking is I'd like to buy some not so available local yeast, and split it into multiple containers which can all be used for higher gravity beers vs pitching in a high gravity beer to begin with, and not being able to reuse it.

I haven't tried splitting 1 pack into multiple starters. Has anyone had success doing this?

I've made one large starter out of a smack pack and split it up for future use. Although I have no problem repitching yeast from high gravity brews.

That's basically what I'm doing. If you're successful and get an obscure yeast and want to trade let me know.

KMcK wrote:That's basically what I'm doing. If you're successful and get an obscure yeast and want to trade let me know.

Good to know. How big of a "starter" do you do the first time around to split it into smaller batches? And what size batches do you split it into?

Make it as big as you can, and split it equally if you are going to turn your splits into starters again.

I've said most of this on the forum here before but it's buried deep somewhere so I'll go over it again.

The suggested pitching rate for ale starters at high krausen when up-scaling is ~ 10x, so for a 23 L batch you should pitch a 2.3 L starter. Also, it's reasonably normal practice to pitch at more like 5x on the 1st generation, once you smack a liquid pack and it swells it's already gone through the first generation, pitch that into a starter and it's now generation #2 and so on. For dry yeast you generally pitch an 11 g sachet into a 23 L batch (unless it's a higher gravity batch), that means you should pitch ~ 1 g into a 2 L starter. Being that it is technically the first generation it wouldn't hurt to double that (although not necessary) which would make that ~ 1 g pitched into a 1 L starter. See where I'm going with this? Think about it. Re-hydrating dry yeast is one thing but if you are going to make a starter you could make 11 separate 1 L starters from 1 sachet, and that's at double the recommended pitch rate. So really if you use dry yeast and make a starter every time, you only need to pitch a gram or 2. Compare it to a liquid yeast smack-pak, you make starters to get up to proper pitch rates but you don't pitch 2 or 3 or 4 packs into each starter

I used to use 500 ml Erlenmeyer flasks with ~ 350 ml of wort for starters I wanted to save, as soon as there's decent activity throw it in the fridge where it will basically go to sleep. You can pull them back out of the fridge 3 months later, let it warm and it will start fermenting again. Pitch that in another 1.5 L starter and watch it go nuts then pitch into the main batch. I've done this with starters up to a year old or more with seemingly no ill effects.

Also if you are confident with your sanitation technique and bacteria load in your brewing area it's a piece of cake to just steal wort back out of the main batch into Erlenmeyer flasks, growlers or whatever you use, same thing again, once you see activity throw it in the fridge. - Brew a 23 L batch, pitch a 2 L starter, now it's a 25 L batch, steal 2 L back out into a growler with airlock, wait until the onset of fermentation, put it in the fridge, pull it out of the fridge next week, let it rock, brew, then do the same thing again, and again, and again. Since bacteria is always picked up with each fermentation no matter how anal retentive you are with sanitation I wouldn't take this too many generations unless you can wash with ClO2 or have a lab for bacteria counts etc. Say maybe 5 tops, that's being reasonably safe, some people have done this 10 or more times consecutively. I was a broke country boy with few resources for homebrewing living outside Amherst in 1991 and probably learned these and other techniques out of necessity more than anything else. Doing these sort of things is economical, fast, easy and brings you a lot closer to self-sufficiency


Also, I've seen chatter here again recently about the 'packaged on' date of liquid smack-paks with regard to viability. It's a useless figure if you are using a starter. Once you have a starter fermenting it's at 100% viability save for the few dead cells from the tiny original pitch into your starter wort so yeah, maybe it's only 99.8% viable. That said if the viability is low you'll want to make the first starter a smaller step, then step that up into your final starter volume. I've seen folks use the yeast calculator adding in their full batch volume, packaged on dates and getting results like '4 smack packs required' and I'd really hate to see anyone buy 4 packs of yeast to pitch into a starter

NASH wrote:I've said most of this on the forum here before...

When's your book coming out? I'll buy it.

I use the technique in Charlie Papazian's book for saving yeast. When I purchase a new smackpack I will prepare a 2L starter for the batch that I am doing that day and prepare 6 beer bottles half full of sterile wort. Open the smack pack and put a small amount in each bottle and the majority in the starter. Seal the bottles with an airlock and let them start fermenting. When they are fermenting you put them in the fridge and they go dormant.

When its time to bring them back, I start with a smaller starter first, then pitch that into the usual 2 L starter. Using this technique you don't know what your pitch rate is, but my batches always start fermenting quickly, ferment to the expected final gravity and don't have any off flavours. The yeast stays viable for at least 9 months in the fridge. You just have to make sure the airlocks don't dry out.

Cheers.

Jason

I have a decent microscope kicking around my apartment, I was wondering if anyone knew the procedure for yeast cell counting so I can get an idea of my pitch rates?

mgc wrote:I have a decent microscope kicking around my apartment, I was wondering if anyone knew the procedure for yeast cell counting so I can get an idea of my pitch rates?

White Labs has a page describing the process. It looks a bit tedious, but straight forward if you have all the equipment.

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/cell_count.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NASH wrote:I've said most of this on the forum here before but it's buried deep somewhere so I'll go over it again.

The suggested pitching rate for ale starters at high krausen when up-scaling is ~ 10x, so for a 23 L batch you should pitch a 2.3 L starter. Also, it's reasonably normal practice to pitch at more like 5x on the 1st generation, once you smack a liquid pack and it swells it's already gone through the first generation, pitch that into a starter and it's now generation #2 and so on. For dry yeast you generally pitch an 11 g sachet into a 23 L batch (unless it's a higher gravity batch), that means you should pitch ~ 1 g into a 2 L starter. Being that it is technically the first generation it wouldn't hurt to double that (although not necessary) which would make that ~ 1 g pitched into a 1 L starter. See where I'm going with this? Think about it. Re-hydrating dry yeast is one thing but if you are going to make a starter you could make 11 separate 1 L starters from 1 sachet, and that's at double the recommended pitch rate. So really if you use dry yeast and make a starter every time, you only need to pitch a gram or 2. Compare it to a liquid yeast smack-pak, you make starters to get up to proper pitch rates but you don't pitch 2 or 3 or 4 packs into each starter

2 L yeast starter.jpg

I used to use 500 ml Erlenmeyer flasks with ~ 350 ml of wort for starters I wanted to save, as soon as there's decent activity throw it in the fridge where it will basically go to sleep. You can pull them back out of the fridge 3 months later, let it warm and it will start fermenting again. Pitch that in another 1.5 L starter and watch it go nuts then pitch into the main batch. I've done this with starters up to a year old or more with seemingly no ill effects.

Also if you are confident with your sanitation technique and bacteria load in your brewing area it's a piece of cake to just steal wort back out of the main batch into Erlenmeyer flasks, growlers or whatever you use, same thing again, once you see activity throw it in the fridge. - Brew a 23 L batch, pitch a 2 L starter, now it's a 25 L batch, steal 2 L back out into a growler with airlock, wait until the onset of fermentation, put it in the fridge, pull it out of the fridge next week, let it rock, brew, then do the same thing again, and again, and again. Since bacteria is always picked up with each fermentation no matter how anal retentive you are with sanitation I wouldn't take this too many generations unless you can wash with ClO2 or have a lab for bacteria counts etc. Say maybe 5 tops, that's being reasonably safe, some people have done this 10 or more times consecutively. I was a broke country boy with few resources for homebrewing living outside Amherst in 1991 and probably learned these and other techniques out of necessity more than anything else. Doing these sort of things is economical, fast, easy and brings you a lot closer to self-sufficiency


Also, I've seen chatter here again recently about the 'packaged on' date of liquid smack-paks with regard to viability. It's a useless figure if you are using a starter. Once you have a starter fermenting it's at 100% viability save for the few dead cells from the tiny original pitch into your starter wort so yeah, maybe it's only 99.8% viable. That said if the viability is low you'll want to make the first starter a smaller step, then step that up into your final starter volume. I've seen folks use the yeast calculator adding in their full batch volume, packaged on dates and getting results like '4 smack packs required' and I'd really hate to see anyone buy 4 packs of yeast to pitch into a starter

Awesome post... Pretty much exactly what I was looking for

papercrane wrote:

mgc wrote:I have a decent microscope kicking around my apartment, I was wondering if anyone knew the procedure for yeast cell counting so I can get an idea of my pitch rates?

White Labs has a page describing the process. It looks a bit tedious, but straight forward if you have all the equipment.

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/cell_count.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks, now I have to find me a Hemocytometer.

mgc wrote:

papercrane wrote:

mgc wrote:I have a decent microscope kicking around my apartment, I was wondering if anyone knew the procedure for yeast cell counting so I can get an idea of my pitch rates?

White Labs has a page describing the process. It looks a bit tedious, but straight forward if you have all the equipment.

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/cell_count.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks, now I have to find me a Hemocytometer.

I have Chris White (White labs) book on yeast and the same procedure is in there but it has a few extra pictures and hints of how to properly count yeast. I can scan it and email to you if you want.

Jason

mgc wrote:

papercrane wrote:

mgc wrote:I have a decent microscope kicking around my apartment, I was wondering if anyone knew the procedure for yeast cell counting so I can get an idea of my pitch rates?

White Labs has a page describing the process. It looks a bit tedious, but straight forward if you have all the equipment.

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/cell_count.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks, now I have to find me a Hemocytometer.

Yeah they can be a bit tough to find, lots on eBay last time I looked but that was a couple years ago. Oh and the Pump House has one they don't use

Staining and counting isn't that difficult and doesn't really take a lot of time once you get the hang of it. A lot of breweries do it before pitching every batch.

NASH wrote:

mgc wrote: Thanks, now I have to find me a Hemocytometer.

Yeah they can be a bit tough to find, lots on eBay last time I looked but that was a couple years ago. Oh and the Pump House has one they don't use

Staining and counting isn't that difficult and doesn't really take a lot of time once you get the hang of it. A lot of breweries do it before pitching every batch.

I don't mind the microscope work (I do plenty of it at work), figured its one more factor in my brewing process I can try and pin down.

spears104 wrote:I have Chris White (White labs) book on yeast and the same procedure is in there but it has a few extra pictures and hints of how to properly count yeast. I can scan it and email to you if you want.

I might take you up on that in a bit. It will probably take a little while for me to actually get around to getting everything I need.

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

So the yeast here in calgary is f'in expensive. $12 for a White labs vial and same for wyeast.

I'm going to start top cropping my yeasts and keeping them going to save money. Issue is I'm not sure how often i'll be brewing. What strains do you guys have collect/harvest for multiple batches? How long do you keep the yeast around for? Any other tips?

For example, I want to make an english IPA but I have a jar of harvested WLP001. I'd like to re-use the WLP001 but concerned im not going to get that additional rich flavour profile as i would with an the english yeasts.

That's a huge topic. I'll save anything and everything until I run out of space.

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