Making Real Ale

[CartoonCod]

And don't forget you could expect different results with a different starting gravity as well. People usually predict the final gravity based on percent attenuation for their setup.

[Jayme]

I wouldn't worry about anybody else's method until you start getting your own under control. There's too many variables to guess. Proper breweries can have decades of consistency and experience, and they may have indicators that you don't know about, so following their method may not be as simple as you think. Don't go by time, go by measurement.

I agree with this entirely. If you have strict controls over your process, you could probably get to the point of using time as an indicator, but even then... Measurement is the only true way to know.


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[GuingesRock]

I was saying really, that up to now, I seem to be having reasonable success with the trial and error method, and getting to know my own fermentation. The more complicated things get, the more room for error. I thought that with consistent brews and consistent conditions, I'd be ahead of the game after a few brews. It's a different approach and you might be right. If anyone tries this, they now have a few options to try and that's great! I now have other options to try if my option 1 doesn't pan out too well, and thanks for that. I think the key factor might be the yeast for me. If I consistently use US-05, and maintain consistent fermentation temperatures between brews, I think I have a better chance of getting a good handle on this. Obviously the OG will have an affect also, and that's where my software can give a rough guide. The big breweries that I visited have only one yeast for all their brews, and their yeasts are closely guarded. I am not saying you are wrong and I'm not saying I am right. If I fail miserably I know what to try next.

[mr x]

Keep in mind that Beersmith is almost worthless for estimating OG. For instance, if you make a beer out of 100% 2 row, and another out of 100% black malt, you get the same OG and FG.

[GuingesRock]

I know! Beersmith has many limitations. On BIAB.info (the previous forum I was on) they ended up writing their own program called BIABacus. They clearly identified all of the shortcomings in BS on that site. The guy who wrote BIABacus did a lot of work on BS and was frustrated because they ignored a lot of what he said. BIABacus is more accurate in my opinion, but I find BS a more useful program for designing beer. As long as you are aware of it's shortcomings.

[Araxi]

Keep in mind that Beersmith is almost worthless for estimating OG. For instance, if you make a beer out of 100% 2 row, and another out of 100% black malt, you get the same OG and FG.

That is so true X, it takes time to really figure out how to work around it's limitations.

[Jayme]

I find promash decent for predicting OG... And you can tweak the potential gravity points of any given malt if you desire. I'm surprised you can't do that in beer smith, but I really haven't used it much at all.


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[mr x]

Beersmith OG has been extremely accurate for me, once I dialed it into my system. But FG is too variable to depend on for naturally carbonating.

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[GuingesRock]

I've been getting accurate FG,s but have a very limited grain/yeast repertoire, and I did a lot of fiddling around with the parameters, based on readings from many previous brews. I have zero confidence in IBU calculations from FWH, but I have no way of testing IBUs to confirm my suspicion. I put 1lb of hops into FWH, and according to BS it should have blown my head off, but it was just pleasantly bitter.

[Jayme]

Beersmith OG has been extremely accurate for me, once I dialed it into my system. But FG is too variable to depend on for naturally carbonating.

Gotcha. I misread the first post... I thought you meant if you put in 1kg of black malt vs. 1kg of 2-row, it gives the same OG. So does beersmith actually try to calculate FG? Promash does not even attempt - it's a user input field (probably because there are so many variables...).

I have zero confidence in IBU calculations from FWH, but I have no way of testing IBUs to confirm my suspicion. I put 1lb of hops into FWH, and according to BS it should have blown my head off, but it was just pleasantly bitter.

I've heard on various podcasts/read in a book (Brewing Better Beer by Gordon Strong... I thinkg) that FWH provide roughly the same amount of IBUS as a 20min boil addition (I believe this was determined by actual experimentation/measurement... but don't quote me on that!). In Promash, if I put in 1g of 6%aa hops, FWH says 0.8 IBU and 20min says 0.3 IBU. Based on my own experience, I agree with what you noticed (adding 1lb as FWH and it being pleasantly bitter), which also lines up with the FWH=20min theory. I'm not sure how the different utilization formulas handle this calculation, nor do I know how Beersmith does it. However, I suspect it's similar.

[mr x]

Beersmith calculates FG, but they don't even attempt to fine tune the calculation. Rocks ferment the same as 2row as far as they are concerned.

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[GuingesRock]

Ok you people were right! I can’t use so many days as an indicator of when to move the beer to kegs for conditioning.

I was all set to leave this one for 5 days, but I checked it today at 3 days and it was done…1.007 and dry as a bone to taste. I had perfect fermentation temperature control during this one, but I pitched at 22C and left it at that temp overnight before chilling to under 20C. The Safeale US-05 instructions say if you pitch without rehydrating, the wort should be over 20C. Too many variables to use time alone.

I think you can also get an idea of when to keg for keg for conditioning from the temperature behaviour in the fermentor. If you don’t have to keep checking temperature rises with cooling, then it’s getting near done.

I’ve given up checking the pressure in the kegs during conditioning with a guage. Beer foam always comes out of the gas post and into the line going to the gauge. What I’m doing now is giving a short little tug on the safety valve ring. I can tell roughly if the pressure is very high from the sound the escaping CO2 makes, and if it is too high, I let the pressure off by holding the ring up. The pressure very soon builds up again if it was too high.

My new plan is to keg after 3 days regardless. Suits my schedule also, as I brew at the weekend and have Wednesday afternoons off. I’ll keep an eye on the pressure in the kegs for a few days with the above method, and release pressure if it is too high.

As you say, there is no way of accurately predicting the gravity at which the beer will finish, so it’s tricky trying to use gravity as an indicator of when to keg.

When I was using the gauge, I had two kegs that went up to 40 PSI which shocked me, and I had to release the pressure completely, several times, to get it to come down. On that occasion I hadn’t been checking the pressure and I think it was 3 days after kegging when I finally checked it. The kegs were also really full.

One other note: I bottled one keg of this real ale with a Blichmann gun to give away (and also I needed the keg). Last night we emptied the last of the keg and had to drink one of the bottles and it is nowhere near as good, so I’m not keen on bottling it any more. If I have to take some anywhere, I’ll take a full keg and put up with a bit of cloudiness from the yeast being stirred up during transport.

[CartoonCod]

What was wrong with the bottle? Can you describe why it tasted like compared to the kegged beer?

[GuingesRock]

What was wrong with the bottle? Can you describe why it tasted like compared to the kegged beer?

There was a definite down turning of the mouth with both of us when we moved to the bottles. I put another keg in the keezer yesterday and having a glass before my wife brings Max home and I’m happy again. It’s definitely awesome stuff.

There wasn’t anything bad about the bottles, no bad taste or anything, but it didn’t have all the flavours. It was like the difference between fresh orange juice from the chiller in the store and that pasteurised stuff you can get just from the shelf in cardboard boxes. Or maybe the difference between fresh milk and milk re-constituted from powder. Maybe not that bad.

It had none of the creamy mouth feel that pulls you back to have more and more either. But that might be in the pouring. Those lengths of tube that I stick in the spout of the picnic taps jet beer nicely to the bottom of the glass.

The bottled beer was pulled of the yeast about a week ago. Perhaps if I pulled it off and drank it fresh it might be different. I should try that.

I had bottled beer, supposed to be real ale, and pints of real ale pulled in the pub in England, and also noticed a big difference.

PLEASE don’t ask me why Adam! Because I don’t bloody well know!

[CartoonCod]

Interesting. I won't trouble you with the "why". Hehehe. I't does make me wonder if I'm missing out on fresh hop character by always bottling my beer.

[GuingesRock]

Interesting. I won't trouble you with the "why". Hehehe. I't does make me wonder if I'm missing out on fresh hop character by always bottling my beer.

Phew! I didn’t think it would be that easy.

There are a few things about beer that are available to provide character and flavour. Some of these things are: Hops, Malt, Different alcohols, Yeast Flavours, and Carbonation.

I think cask/keg conditioning addresses more, the last two or three things in that list, to make beer feature everything that’s possible. I don't think it was the hop flavour that was missing in the bottles, but more likely it was the yeast flavours and the carbonation. Everything blends together though. If you have strawberry jam and scones without Cornish clotted cream, or trifle without sherry, or hops with 5% alcohol and no malts, it isn’t quite the same

Ps. One other observation: because I don’t use finings, I haven’t found that the real ale clears fully like my old beers did. I reduced my “cellar” temperature to 8C (don’t tell anyone) and I got better clearing, and didn’t notice any detriment to the "real ale experience". Thinking back to the old days, the cellars in the pubs, must have got down to cooler temperatures than 12C at times during the winter, and I can’t imagine it caused a riot.

[GuingesRock]

What do I do here Please? My plan was keg condition for 2 weeks and then put in the keezer at cellar temperature or maybe slightly lower. But I have no room left in the keezer. Will it suffer for being left for a few weeks longer at room temperature?

I always put my kegs in the keezer when I wanted too and never had this situation before. The other thing is they clear after 2 weeks in the keezer. Will they still clear at room temperature? Will it take longer for them to clear? How much longer?

What do people do with their kegs of beer that they are not going to drink right away in general? Probably a stupid question but I don’t know the answer.

Thanks

[mr x]

I store kegs in the coldest part of the house. Clearing will happen, but probably slower than if really cold.

[LeafMan66_67]

Mine are stored around 18 degrees in the summer, 15-16 in the winter in the coolest part of my basement.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks! I’m just checking out the temperature in the basement.

Is the flavour better/worse/the same with kegs stored that way vs. stored in the keezer?

Any other advantages/disadvantages apart from slower clearing?

How long have you stored them that way, and do you ever find you need to re-pressurize, or that they go flat, when not hooked up to CO2, if they have been there for a while?

Thanks for the help.

[mr x]

I'd store them cold if i could. Never leak.

[LeafMan66_67]

I don't have space to store them cold. They've never leaked, never gone flat and haven't noticed any issues. I've had kegs full and sitting around for a few months.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks both? My questions answered.

I guess 100 years ago, casks of IPA made the long sea voyage to India.

I’m off to move them to the basement.

[GuingesRock]

More questions

You must be force carbonating at higher temperatures and just using higher CO2 pressures?

Or do you maybe force carb in the keezer/fridge and then move the beer to the basement?

The reason I’m asking, is I wanted to know if there are any foreseeable problems moving kegs out of the keezer, after they have been in there for a while, to higher temperatures (around 20C). For example the yeast might come out of dormancy and make the beer cloudy again??

My basement is at 20C, same as my beer room ATM. Probably will get colder in the winter down there.

[LeafMan66_67]

Both force carbed in kegerator and moved as well as primed in the keg. More often than not I prime in the keg.