Mash PH

[AllanMar]

Brewing did pretty well for hundreds of years, without the damn science.

Like most things through history, they were applying the science without even knowing it. Using the "experienced based approach", they didn't know why it worked but it did so they kept doing it.

I suppose I could import my water from around the world, or I could use what we now know to adjust my own...

[GuingesRock]

Yes, I have to say though. I'm enjoying learning about it all. More tools in your kit bag.

[Jayme]

Brewing did pretty well for hundreds of years, without the damn science.

But perhaps by today's standards some of the stuff brewed back then would be considered swill... haha. Now I'm just being argumentative.

[GuingesRock]

Brewing did pretty well for hundreds of years, without the damn science.

But perhaps by today's standards some of the stuff brewed back then would be considered swill... haha. Now I'm just being argumentative.

Modern Coors Light has to be the result of science (and marketing). No comparison to Dom Perignon or a fine cognac

I wish I could make some of that old IPA, It was said to have been preferred by the gentry to the finest champagnes.

There’s a lot of science in highly processed foods and fast foods, chemical flavorings, hydrogenated fats, preservatives, colourings, acidifiers, but how much science is there in Bouillabaisse (my favorite Provencal meal). It’s made the same way it has been for hundreds of years.

Bring it on Jayme.

[Woody]

Anyone ever try 5.2 mash stabilizer? I have not but wonder how it works. I've read mixed reviews. Sounds to good to be true.

[GuingesRock]

No but read about it:

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SPECIAL NOTE: Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is indicated by its manufacturer to "lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water". Evidence by homebrewers indicates that this product does not produce a mash pH in the preferred room-temperature range of 5.3 to 5.5. That evidence shows this product does produce some pH moderation in waters with high Residual Alkalinity. However, the mash pH tends to center around 5.8 (room-temperature measurement). While 5.8 pH is acceptable, it is at the upper end of the desirable mashing range. The evidence also shows that in waters with low Residual Alkalinity, this product shows little effect on mash pH. Since Five Star 5.2 Stabilizer is a compound with high sodium content, its use will elevate the sodium concentration in the brewing water. High sodium content can be undesirable from a taste standpoint in beer. Proper alkalinity control of mashing and sparging water may produce more acceptable brewing results for most brewers than with the use of 5.2 Stabilizer. To add emphasis to difficulty in using this product, the following conversation posted on Homebrew Talk between noted brewing water expert, AJ DeLange and the chemist from Five Star Chemical regarding their 5.2 Stabilizer product. "Tipped a few last night with the chemist who designed this product and was able to confirm that it is indeed a mix of phosphates (mono and di basic) that accounts for the presence of the malt phosphate. This is something I have long suspected and am pleased to have finally confirmed. Good manners prevented me from pressing him on it's efficacy and suitability relative to the statement on the label. But his comments on it were basically that most brewers shouldn't use it/need it and that it was put together for a particular brewery that had variable source water and no desire to make any effort to track that variability."

[Woody]

Interesting. I think I'll stick to using Brewers friend water addition calculator and plug in my numbers each time. I try and make my additions specific to the area of the beer I am brewing.

[GuingesRock]

Based on brewing a few brews with 85% phosphoric acid, and using the Bru’n water as well as the EZ spreadsheets, I’ve come up with a small modification to use the EZ calculator to enable it to predict how much phosphoric acid to use.

1) Edit the words Lactic Acid to read Phosphoric Acid 85%
2) Enter 130% in the acid content box (it’s a lie but it makes it all work)
3) That’s it. In my spread sheet I have changed the text colour of the 130% lie to grey so it doesn’t show, but I left it black in the picture below so you can see what’s done.

EZ MASH ADJUST.png

Important note: If you are using these spread sheets to predict how much acid, the Bru’n water guy told me you must add the acid to cold water, before you heat it. I found adding it to hot strike water threw the estimations way off.

Mark,

One thing that concerns me with your process is that you added the acid just before mashing in. Does that mean you had already heated the water? If so, the tap water's alkalinity will have been reduced by the heating and your acid addition may have been excessive for the amount of alkalinity remaining in that heated water. Always add acid to the water prior to heating...or retest the alkalinity of that heated water and calculate your acid addition based on that new alkalinity value.

On a side note, I have also noted lower than predicted pH in my last mash and your results add to that. I know that Rahr malts are slightly acidified at the maltster and they contribute to a lower pH than indicated by the malt color rating. I have to wonder if other maltsters are doing the same thing and acidifying their malts a bit?

Martin Brungard
Carmel, IN

On another note. Using the EZ program, I get an accurate prediction of the PH lowering of Wyerman acid malt from OBK by changing the acid content in the acidulated malt box to 1.6% YMMV.

[GuingesRock]

I've been getting on well with my PH lately, usually end up between 5.25 and 5.3. This afternoon I'm making an American wheat, and the 40% wheat is much more acidic than I expected. The PH (tested at room temp) is 5.06. What's that going to do to my wheat beer?

[Broob]

I've been reading a lot on this topic here and in other sources as water adjustment is my next conquest. Going to be picking up some phosphoric acid to get my mash ph locked in and going to start making some salt additions to get the water to the appropriate levels. I've been fiddling with some of the spreadsheets and the one I like is the Brewers friend. Just wondering what the consensus is on salt additions to mash water only versus to mash and to sparge water.

[GuingesRock]

I've been reading a lot on this topic here and in other sources as water adjustment is my next conquest. Going to be picking up some phosphoric acid to get my mash ph locked in and going to start making some salt additions to get the water to the appropriate levels. I've been fiddling with some of the spreadsheets and the one I like is the Brewers friend. Just wondering what the consensus is on salt additions to mash water only versus to mash and to sparge water.

I can't help with this. I do full volume mashes.

[Broob]

Thanks

[LiverDance]

If you are batch sparging I would only concentrate on using the salts to help the mash ph and not worry about the sparge.

[Broob]

Yeah I should have mentioned, batch sparge. Thanks.

[McGruff]

That is what I have read in the past. Get your mash PH in check and don't worry about the sparge water. I add my salts to the mash and boil.

[jtmwhyte]

I've just started adjusting pH with phosphoric acid and the Water Spreadsheet that GuingesRock sent me. The result has been two very good tasting beers.

[jtmwhyte]

I also do full volume mash with eBIAB

[Woody]

I'm with Trevor and Mark. I use EZ water calculator as well to lock in my mash PH with good results. I adjust lighter beer with small additions of lactic acid, gypsum and calcium chloride. With my well water my numbers go out of wack if I use too much of either so the lactic acid helps lower my mash PH if I'm high. I don't need lactic acid with darker malts as my mash PH is usually good.

[GuingesRock]

I aim for a mash PH of between 5.1 and 5.3. That seems to make the nicest beer for me, and I use phosphoric acid. I believe in the chloride/sulphate ratio and I like to keep chloride and sulphate around the same (both around 90 in my APA,), but I'm still learning.

When I was looking into this I kept asking questions on the forum and didn't get a lot of help. Truthfully, I think that's a) because it is a big grey area with few guidelines, and b) not a lot of brewers are heavily into it, a few (like me) dabble in it. Maybe the chloride sulphate ratio is perhaps a guideline, but many (including Greg) think that's a lot of crap as well.

It's all just something else to play around with and keep brewing interesting.

This little link is a fantastic source of info. and all you need to get started: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I like the EZ calculator best, I used the Bru'n water for a while but didn't find it gave reliable PH estimations for me. I modified the EZ so it roughly estimates mash PH using phosphoric acid (the unmodified one only calculates lactic). But mostly now I go from experience with previous brews with similar grain bills to know how much phosphoric acid to use. Same with the salts, once you've done a brew, and it's to your liking, no need to run the calculations again, just do that if you are making something entirely different.

For my water, I add gypsum, epsom salts and phosphoric acid only. I use much less acid with darker beers, but I keep the salts the same. You are supposed to adjust the salts for different kinds of beers, but I don't. I like my salt profile and use it for all beers. That's probably inexperience or laziness talking. But, it is important to use different amounts of acid otherwise the PH will be out of whack. If you were only using salts for PH adjustment, and I'm not sure if you can really do that and make a palatable beer, then adjusting the salts would be necessary of course, to get the PH right.

[Woody]

When I was looking into this I kept asking questions on the forum and didn't get a lot of help. Truthfully, I think that's a) because it is a big grey area with few guidelines, and b) not a lot of brewers are heavily into it, a few (like me) dabble in it. Maybe the chloride sulphate ratio is perhaps a guideline, but many (including Greg) think that's a lot of crap as well.

G Rock I agree with this. Water chemistry is still a huge mystery to most. I still have a ton of question but learn thru trail and error. I adjust the amount of lactic acid I add based on the grain bill but play with the amount of calcium chloride and gypsum based on each style of beer. For darker beer I add my water treatment to the boil but lighter beer I normally add it to the mash. It just depends on my research of the style and my water. I play around with EZ to figure out what will work best. My efficiency has increased with certain beer styles that in the past I wasn't hitting my numbers on.

[GuingesRock]

KISS might be a good acronym for water chemistry (Keep It Simple Stupid). Might be a good one for brewing in general too.

[Broob]

FWIW I just ordered a pH meter from amazon. $9.95 - with tax and free delivery. It could be garbage but for 10 bucks I'm willing to risk it.

http://www.amazon.ca/Brainytrade-Digita ... s=ph+meter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GuingesRock]

You will need buffer solutions to calibrate. You can get them from NG quite cheaply. If you don't have storage solution for the PH probe, us the PH 4 buffer solution for that. Stir mash and take your sample 15 minutes after mashing in. Cool sample to room temperature before checking PH.

[Broob]

I know this place is no secret and has been referenced a lot here but I just bought a litre of phosphoric acid 75% from Bebbington Industries. Came to $25 or so. Could have bought 4L for $35 I think but it's going to take me long enough to go through 1L.

[jtmwhyte]

I know this place is no secret and has been referenced a lot here but I just bought a litre of phosphoric acid 75% from Bebbington Industries. Came to $25 or so. Could have bought 4L for $35 I think but it's going to take me long enough to go through 1L.

I got mine there too. Great deal. I figured I wouldn't go through a 4L jug at my current rate fir about 10 years, lol