Fermentation Temperature – Screwing It Up Again.

[jeffsmith]

My only concern with their design would be if you do primary/secondary in a single carboy (like me), I could see blow off being an issue...

Fermcap?

I have no idea of the cost f the materials required, but I think $149 would be the sweet spot for something like that. I'd likely buy a couple at that price. $300 for one seems a bit much though.

[LeafMan66_67]

Yeah price is steep. I imagine they had to secure their ad in BYO well before the publishing deadline for the September issue. It will be interesting to see if anyone can come up with something similar.

[GuingesRock]

EXPERIMENT #1
3’ of silicon tubing around 1 gallon of water. Took 1 ½ hours to go from boiling to 110F. Not impressed.

[GuingesRock]

EXPERIMENT #2
I thought the ¼ “ copper would cling to the pot but it didn’t. There were very few contact points with the pot.

[GuingesRock]

EXPERIMENT #2 - pending

What I plan to do is get 100ft of the cheapest nastiest thin walled tubing that I can. 10ft will take water from the sink to the pot. 10 ft will take water from the pot back to the sink. The other 80 ft will provide 10 wraps around the pot which has a circ of 8 ft. I will wrap the tube around the pot at flameout, but I will start running the cold water through the tube before I start wrapping it around the pot, to protect the cheap tubing from the 100C pot. If I don’t like it for chilling wort, at least I will have an effective way of controlling the fermentation temperature.

[gm-]

Why not just buy a designated fermentation fridge? Seems less hassle than all those experiments with tubing and coils?

[GuingesRock]

Why not just buy a designated fermentation fridge? Seems less hassle than all those experiments with tubing and coils?

I'm never sure with a question like that, what the intention is, is it intended as a put down, or a genuine interest.

Assuming the latter…I’m trying to develop something that suits my particular and unusual setup. I’m fermenting 12 gallons in a 16 gallon kettle. I have my personal reasons for doing that. I don’t want to move that thing anywhere, particularly, I don’t want to try and lift it into a fridge. Yes I could rack into carboys but I don’t want to do that, its extra work and cleaning, and also I leave my late hops/flameout hops in the kettle/fermentor, and I like to do that.

What I am hoping to achieve is a simple method of wort chilling that is entirely sanitary since it is external and the lid will be on during the most risky time for infection when the wort is warm and nicely exposed to the air. The same system will also serve as a fermentation temperature control system during primary fermentation in the kettle, before being kegged for my keg conditioning that I also like to do...just because I do like doing what I like to do.

[gm-]

No put down intended, just seemed to me that a fridge would be the simplest method, and I find that the simplest methods are usually the best. So you don't move the kettle at all after the boil? If that is the case then this all makes sense.

[AllanMar]

I'm not sure I'd call this a simple method at this point...

How cold are you hoping to get it, how cold is your tap water and how long do you want it to take?

Your going to have to stir the pot to get a reasonable cooling rate with 12gallons, which is taking away a lot of your sanitary benefits. Your not going to be able to get anything half decent with plastic/silicone tubing (ever touch silicone tubing when circing boiling water?). Your going to have to use copper to have a chance, you'll also need good contact with the pot. If your serious about doing this, your likely going to need to circ glycol....

Look at the guys that wrap cooling coils around there fermentors and what kind of performance they can get. Keeping in mind you have to remove ALOT more heat.

[LeafMan66_67]

I'm never sure with a question like that, what the intention is, is it intended as a put down, or a genuine interest.

I think you will find that any comments you get back on this forum are not intended as put downs, but genuine questions. It's the disadvantage of written text vs spoken word. We have our debates, discussions and heated discussions, but at the end of the day, everyone loves to sit back with a brew!

[GuingesRock]

I'm never sure with a question like that, what the intention is, is it intended as a put down, or a genuine interest.

I think you will find that any comments you get back on this forum are not intended as put downs, but genuine questions. It's the disadvantage of written text vs spoken word. We have our debates, discussions and heated discussions, but at the end of the day, everyone loves to sit back with a brew!

That sounds like a fine attitude. I'll sit back and have a brew with you if I may, and while I'm at it I should apologize to gm-.

[sleepyjamie]

Actually Derek aka leafman is a douche and not to be trusted and his beer and BBQ sucks. Lol

[LeafMan66_67]

Actually Derek aka leafman is a douche and not to be trusted and his beer and BBQ sucks. Lol

Don't listen to Jamie - he's just one of those engineering types who thinks the answers lie out west!

[GuingesRock]

I'm not sure I'd call this a simple method at this point...

How cold are you hoping to get it, how cold is your tap water and how long do you want it to take?

Your going to have to stir the pot to get a reasonable cooling rate with 12gallons, which is taking away a lot of your sanitary benefits. Your not going to be able to get anything half decent with plastic/silicone tubing (ever touch silicone tubing when circing boiling water?). Your going to have to use copper to have a chance, you'll also need good contact with the pot. If your serious about doing this, your likely going to need to circ glycol....

Look at the guys that wrap cooling coils around there fermentors and what kind of performance they can get. Keeping in mind you have to remove ALOT more heat.

I think you are probably correct on all of that. I'm probably in the process of proving outside coils don't work. The answers, maybe are out west, but today I thought they were in Canadian Tire. 25' coils of 1/2" polyethylene (not vinyl) tubing for about $5. I think polyethylene will stand 100C without melting.

The best thing for my purposes is likely going to end up being a plumbed in internal SS coil (Ladd started a thread on that...thanks for the idea), but I'll try the outside tubing, just to see.

[sleepyjamie]

Unfortunately the best method for cooling is direct contact with the wort and large surface area with a good thermal conductive material. I'm considering abolishing my plate chiller and going with the super re-circ immersion chiller that is featured on morebeer.com

[LeafMan66_67]

Counter flow chiller only got me down to 26 degrees C today - tap water was in the 20 degree range. Carboy is in an ice bath to get me to pitching temp.

[Jayme]

My only concern with their design would be if you do primary/secondary in a single carboy (like me), I could see blow off being an issue...

Fermcap?

I have no idea of the cost f the materials required, but I think $149 would be the sweet spot for something like that. I'd likely buy a couple at that price. $300 for one seems a bit much though.

Strangely enough, I use fermcap (or sometimes just an equivalent) in every boil, yet never for fermentation. I suppose it would work - but I still would feel more comfortable with that unit if the expensive control electronics were not directly over the danger zone!

The best thing for my purposes is likely going to end up being a plumbed in internal SS coil (Ladd started a thread on that...thanks for the idea), but I'll try the outside tubing, just to see.

The silicone tubing experiment did not have great results haha. Good on ya for trying though. I would also be curious how quickly (or if) it would drop water at 25C in a 25C ambient, down to 20C. The results from the boil experiment almost indicate it's not worth even trying though. I suspect the water would have dropped almost just as quick (or slow) without the silicone coil.

I think based on those results, cooling your wort from the boil is almost out of the question, but you might (big might) have some success with some form of tubing for fermentation control. Though just to play devil's advocate with your own goal (in this case, less cleaning/work), if you mount an internal coil, that's one coil to clean. If you still use an immersion chiller/clean it AND have to wrap tubing around, is that not more effort than cleaning one coil and not wrapping tubing?

On a side note - sleepyjamie mentioned a counterflow immersion chiller. That's currently what I'm making/going to switch to soon. When the city tap water is warm, I think I'll use my current immersion chiller in an ice bath to chill my water before going through the main chiller. The beauty of these, is you can just recirculate the wort while still boiling to get things sanitized, and get a good whirlpool started. I have a big piece of aluminum sheet metal that I'm going to cut a lid with a hole to poke out the chiller so as not to wreck the real lid, and avoid having to crack it on the side.

[jeffsmith]

Strangely enough, I use fermcap (or sometimes just an equivalent) in every boil, yet never for fermentation. I suppose it would work - but I still would feel more comfortable with that unit if the expensive control electronics were not directly over the danger zone!

I didn't use it in the fermenter until one morning at about 5:30am I got a face full of krausen. Not the nicest wake up, I still prefer a cup of coffee.

Since then I use it every time.

[Jayme]

I suppose it would help head retention as well.

[ottiscan]

Here's a few pics of the mini-chiller I'm using. I know you want a more permanent fixture so that you don't have to open the fermenter at all. I remove the chiller when heavy ferment stops and place the conical top (black top in first picture) and a regular stopper and air-lock on in about 20 seconds. The black cylinder shaped thing is actually a piece of steel rod that I use as a weight to hold the plexiglass top down against the rubber "o"ring on the top of the fermenter.

[GuingesRock]

Great pictures and idea Ottiscan. That’s given me another option to consider. Instead of permanently plumbing the coil into the pot, I could rubber bung it through a hole in the lid. Also If I plumbed it in through the sides of the pot, if I made the holes above the liquid level I wouldn't need any fancy fittings. I could simply poke the ends of the coil through tightly fitting holes, which would make removal for cleaning a breeze.

I think a pot with a double wall would be nice. I wonder if there’s a way to make a water jacket for a pot.

[Ladd]

Permanently attaching the chiller to the lid was going to be my next suggestion. You could then have it sanitized and drop the lid and chiller in at flame out. A couple minutes in wort that hot would be plenty to kill any bugs. Then you could turn on the cold water to chill, and also use it to control your fermentation temps. The weight of the chiller hanging from the lid would also help pull the lid down nice and tight on your kettle.

[GuingesRock]

Ladd, I've been thinking a bit more, and I think I would prefer to install the coil through the sides like in your picture above. It would be neater, less clumsy and more secure, and could be removed from time to time for thorough cleaning just like the ball valve and thermometer can. Did you get as far as figuring out suitable fittings to plumb that in through the pot walls yet?

Ottiscan: what’s the issue supposed to be with copper in the fermentor? Is there enough of a concern that I should order a SS coil, or will I be ok to plumb in my copper one, do you reckon.

I just checked my tap water with a thermapen and it is 19C. If the immersion coil in the fermentor was inadvertently left running it would never get too cold, and might never get below 20 – 21C.

[GuingesRock]

...perhaps I should just drill two tightly fitting holes for the ends of the chiller, just under the pot rim and leave it at that. Then I could simply pull the coil out at cleaning time.

[Ladd]

Hey Mark,

I was thinking of just soldering these on my chiller instead of the hose ends:

10459.W01146H_4.jpg

Pop a silicon o-ring on it to seal it against the inner pot wall and poke the threaded end through the wall of the pot. Then you could thread on ball valves to secure it tight and regulate flow.

Hope that helps,
Matt

Edit - that would make pulling the chiller for a good cleaning easy. Just wind off the ball valves and pull it back out. Since you do BIAB, you could even wait to install it until after you've sparged and are ready to boil.