Making Real Ale

[GuingesRock]

So all the yeast cake/sediment goes back into the cask/keg? Interesting.

Not all of it. Just what's in suspension.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks for all of the reporting on this GRock. Following your experiments and research is making for a very interesting thread!

Thanks.

[GuingesRock]

I’ve been doing some cellermanship on my first batch of keg conditioned real ale. So far I can call it real ale as I haven’t yet applied any CO2 for dispensing. I put it in the keezer yesterday at 12C and poured my first glass. The keg was naturally carbonated at 18 PSI. The other keg is at 16 PSI, I think because it had a bigger head space.

The first glass I poured yesterday when it went into the keezer was 80% foam, literally like foam and not like any other head on beer I’ve seen. It was quite cloudy, but I believe it will "drop bright", hoping so any way. Since yesterday, every time I walk past the room where it is, I have been going in there and pulling up the ring on the keg’s pressure release valve, and each time I do that, there is another big release of pressure but it’s getting less. I just poured another glass and tried it. I’d say the carbonation and head is getting there, and I was able to pour a glass of beer rather than foam. It’s still a bit cloudy. It is my Champagne Cascade recipe, with US-05 and comparing it with the normal Champagne Cascade, I’d say the key words would be “very fruity” and “smooth”, and has more aroma. I like it, and so does my wife. Gravity at kegging after 3 day ferment was 1.012, gravity now 1.007.

Here's the new batch I am doing today. It has some modifications to include flameout hops and bigger batch size to fill the kegs fully.

[GuingesRock]

How’s this for cellarmanship! It hasn’t “dropped bright” yet but it will (nothing wrong with a bit of faith, especially if you aren’t using finings).

We’re drinking it outside in “the courtyard” and it is LOVELY. It’s nicer than anything I have brewed EVER!

We won’t be able to drink our other kegs of beer now, so maybe I’ll have to give them to family…good thing I got all those stainless steel bottles!...also a good thing I made another 10 gal batch of the Champagne Cascade - real ale version, today.

...written under the influence of the real ale (still no CO2 hooked up) and a beautiful sunny afternoon.

[Jimmy]

Nice work!

[mr x]

Yup

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[GAM]

Mark I may be pasing WolfV Sunday afternoon. I'll see if the Wife is up for a stop by.

Don't wait around for us. It is a maybe.

Sandy

Sandy, Be great to see you again, and meet your wife. I'm feeling the pressure now! I hope it's good but it will be fresh, maybe too fresh. Anyone else feel free to drop by Sunday 25th just after lunch.

Oh, and anyone who is coming, bring swimming gear if the weather is good...we have a pool with a shallow end for kids.

We were running very late and didn't stop at all. We'll be in Keji this week if anyone is around.

Sandy

[Jimmy]

Mark I may be pasing WolfV Sunday afternoon. I'll see if the Wife is up for a stop by.

Don't wait around for us. It is a maybe.

Sandy

Sandy, Be great to see you again, and meet your wife. I'm feeling the pressure now! I hope it's good but it will be fresh, maybe too fresh. Anyone else feel free to drop by Sunday 25th just after lunch.

Oh, and anyone who is coming, bring swimming gear if the weather is good...we have a pool with a shallow end for kids.

We were running very late and didn't stop at all. We'll be in Keji this week if anyone is around.

Sandy

Sounds like you were a day early to me

[GuingesRock]

My second batch of US-05 real ale has been three days fermenting. I was ready to keg it today, but it wasn't ready. OG was 1.016. I'll try again tomorrow. I had a bit of a fight with temperature control and it briefly went up to 27, but I got it back down to 21. Thus better temp control = longer before kegging. The real ale breweries in the UK ferment for 7 days before it goes into the cask. I suppose the best guide as to when to keg is to go by the gravity.

[Jayme]

Gravity is definitely the key indicator. Sometimes though, if you let yeast rise up like that and drop the temp back down, it just goes to sleep.

[GuingesRock]

This batch was ready for kegging and keg conditioning today after 4 days. It was at 1.01. By the way it was delicious and drinkable. Yesterday it was at 1.016. I had better fermentation temperature control with this batch using the ice Tam o' Shanter and the garbage can with thermoelectric cooler contraption, but it still went up to 27C for a day. I’m hoping that my new setup with the fermentor immersion chiller, will achieve better fermentation temperature control.

[GuingesRock]

My sister-in-law, who is in the process of completing her Sommelier training, was around this afternoon trying my beers. Her favorite was the latest batch of real ale Champagne Cascade. She wrote me a review I wanted to post it on this thread because it identified some of the features of real ale…and also because I’m really chuffed that she identified and highlighted the carbonation.

Review of Guinges Rock Champagne Cascade

The appearance of this ale is a golden light honey hue and slightly cloudy. The carbonation is visible, fine bubbles adhering to the glass and the head is moderate and creamy.

Aromas are generous with a candied lemon quality, sweet florals and apricot fruit.

Upon tasting this beer the rich, creamy mouth filling quality is immediately apparent. The texture is a standout quality. Pleasant bitterness balances the mouth feel.

The carbonation is balanced and lifts the flavors gently.

The finish enjoyably features the bitterness of the hops.

[CartoonCod]

Once you got your temp control all figured out and can produce identical batches, I think it would be very interesting to have a blind taste test between your real ale and a newly made identical copy but force carb'ed instead. I'd love to do a side by side comparison (edit: ", and I'm sure other people would like to as well")

[GuingesRock]

Once you got your temp control all figured out and can produce identical batches, I think it would be very interesting to have a blind taste test between your real ale and a newly made identical copy but force carb'ed instead. I'd love to do a side by side comparison (edit: ", and I'm sure other people would like to as well")

More work for poor old Guinges although I would love to have some Brewnosers come around ant try it. I know you have an interest in why the carbonation should be different in real ale as compared to force carb. Your argument was that CO2 is CO2. My wife (the biochemist) and I had difficulty answering your question, although we had a go at it. Does anyone know the answer to that question?

I would have to make two completely seperate batches because it just isn't the carbonation, it's the fermentation handling, the keg/cask conditioning, the method of pouring, and the serving temperature.

I made the same batch beer before many times and forced carbed it. The difference is night and day between that and the new stuff, and it isn't just me. It has some sort of wow factor with everyone who tries it, and they had my old version before as well. But you are right in some respect...my fermentation control has improved (my new contraption is keeping at ideal temperatures, I run the water through the coiling coil morning and night for 10 - 20 mins, and plan to keep that up for the first four days) and that's probably also a factor. The batch reviewed by my sister in law didn't have great temperature control as I didn't have my new rig when I fermented it.

[GuingesRock]

Adam, I’ve been thinking a bit more about that. I wonder if it might be more a matter of degree of carbonation (see below). I could see that with higher levels of CO2 in the beer, larger bubbles would form, and produce a harsher carbonation with more burping as the gas escaped from the beer in the stomach. Nitrogen dispensed Guinness has a very creamy mouth feel as the nitrogen bubbles are much finer. I wonder also if the higher serving temperature with real ale might result in reduced levels of CO2 in the beer. Before you force carb, you usually chill the beer first so you can get more CO2 into the beer. Conversely if the beer is warmer, it would retain less CO2, carbonation would be lower and would present as smaller smoother bubbles.

I’d be anxious to hear if anyone has any other comments on this. It's a good question that you raised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cask_ale
By the early 1970s most beer in Britain was keg beer, filtered, pasteurised and artificially carbonated, and most British brewers used carbon dioxide for dispensing keg beers. This led to beers containing more dissolved gas in the glass than the traditional ale and to a consumer demand for a return to these ales. By contrast, in Ireland, where stout was dominant, the use of a mixture of carbon dioxide and nitrogen for dispensing prevented the beer from becoming over-carbonated. Rare examples of natural beers could still be found in the farmhouse beers of Northern Europe and the maize beers of South America for example, in essence the last great stronghold of natural beer was about to be wiped out. In 1971 the Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA) was founded in Britain to save what they came to term "real ale".

[CartoonCod]

I don't get that quote. Maybe I am misreading it, but there is no reason an artificially carbed beer has to have more dissovled CO2. By force carbing it yourself you can specify the volumes of CO2 that are dissolved in your beer by following some handy calculators (http://www.brewersfriend.com/keg-carbon ... alculator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, or http://byo.com/stories/item/1132-master ... arbonation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).
- The way I see it, with respect to carbonation, CO2 is CO2 it doesn't matter how it gets there. If you want a low concentration of CO2 in your keg, just set your regulator to a lower setting. Or if you want a lower carbonation in your poured beer, just stir it up before drinking it.
- With respect to bubble size, in my bottled conditioned beer (by adding sugar to prime the bottles) I've had some really big bubbles in some beers that have been naturally overcarbed. Maybe bubble size is related to the concentration of dissolved CO2, or the temp at which it was poured or some combination of both? I'm not sure.
- One thing I am curious about is the ester production (and all the other chemicals the yeast produce) that you "lock in" by sealing the keg. This is where I think the difference is between real vs artificial ale.

But what do I know, I've never did a comparison. There is only one way to find out!

[Jayme]

Maybe the bubbles are 'smaller' due to the increased nucleation points from the yeast still in the beer.


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[mr x]

I've always found a difference between forced and natural carbonation. Maybe it's just my imagination, maybe not. Iirc, we had this discussion before here somewhere....

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[GuingesRock]

Maybe the bubbles are 'smaller' due to the increased nucleation points from the yeast still in the beer.


Sent from a rotary telephone using taps talk

That was my first thought, and it was my tentative response when Adam first put me on the spot with his question. I believe that is probably a factor in my beer as it is still a bit cloudy, and that might be an argument in favour having your beer slightly cloudy. But! Commercial real ales “drop bright’ and are often fined with isinglass. It may be that something in real ale, apart from the cloudy yeast, is acting as nucleation points…esters?

The first question is: Are the bubbles in real ale actually finer? Mr X’s comment is useful in that regard, and I believe it’s often said that they are, in the literature.

The next question I have is: Is it the size of the bubbles that directly produces the smoother mouth feel, or is it something else, like more esters, higher temperature, lower carbonation? All of these things may contribute. Fine nitrogen bubbles in Guinness in Ireland produces a glass of beer that is like drinking down a pint of cream (I’ve had many of them), but that’s nitrogen, and it will have the same effect on any beer.

If the size of the bubbles is a significant factor, then I’m leaning towards a belief that smaller bubbles are the result of lower carbonation. The cellarman keeps soft spiling and releasing CO2 until he sees the fine bubbles just under the head when he gives the beer glass a quick swirl, then he knows the beer is ready to serve. This process is carried out at warmer cellar temperatures (12C) and I believe that would result in less CO2 in the beer.

When I did my "real ale simulation", before I started on the real ale, I believe I got small bubbles, and it was noticed by several people. One person even started writing a song for his band about “those tiny bubbles”, Sandy tried it and said he “really liked the lower carbonation”. The real ale simulation process was basically beer that had been very slightly carbonated only, like Adam suggested, and my keezer was set at cellar temperature.

Having said that. The difference in the whole experience with the real ale vs. the real ale simulated beer is huge. So much so, that I won’t go back to the simulation.

Bubbles or not, it’s a whole new ball game.

[GuingesRock]

Gravity is definitely the key indicator. Sometimes though, if you let yeast rise up like that and drop the temp back down, it just goes to sleep.

I'm not sure about this now. I kegged yesterday after 4 days. The gravity was 1.01 with an expected FG of 1.007. The kegs were at 30 PSI this morning and I let some pressure of them. I'm getting to pressure fermenting territory. I should read up on that a bit.

This was a US-05 batch and this time with perfect temperature control during the ferment. Next time I should try five days.

I think the thing might be to know your yeast, keep fermentation conditions constant between batches, and keg after so many days, depending on the yeast. As I mentioned before, St. Austell Brewery, which I visited, puts their real ale in the cask after a 7 day primary ferment always, and they don't go by gravity.

I think 04 might be three days and 05 might be 5 days, with my fermentation conditions.

[mr x]

If you are going to keg beer before it's finished fermenting, you should be doing a forced fermentation test to know where the wort is expected to finish. Is this how you came up with 1.007?

[GuingesRock]

Thanks, I don't know what a forced fermentation test is, and I'd like to know more.

I came up with expected of 1.007 because I fiddled with BeerSmith until it accurately predicts the FG that I actually get from my brews. I'm very confident that this will finish at 1.007, or worst case 1.008.

[mr x]

Using software to predict FG is a bad idea if you plan to naturally carbonate without priming. You need to test the wort.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/he-brew-qc.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GuingesRock]

Thanks, I'll have a good look at that. But, in my case, it isn't the software I'm using so much as it is, knowing the particular brew and how it behaves...similar to St. Austell Brewery. That's my excuse anyway.

[mr x]

I wouldn't worry about anybody else's method until you start getting your own under control. There's too many variables to guess. Proper breweries can have decades of consistency and experience, and they may have indicators that you don't know about, so following their method may not be as simple as you think. Don't go by time, go by measurement.