Mash PH

[AllanMar]

Thanks for the advice,

7 is a lucky number, so I'll try 7 mls, aiming for a PH of 5.4, plus there's room for a bit of error wither way.

I just heard back from CHBS and their gallon jugs of phosphoric acid are not food grade. I think their lactic acid is though. There doesn't seem to be on online supplier of phosphoric acid for home brewers (hint hint Dave).

I love that Bru'n water spreadsheet. http://www.brewnosers.org/forums/viewto ... 648#p94504" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; If you send a small donation he emails you an upgraded version.

Chbs? I'm looking for lactic acid, do you have a price? I'm gonna get some phosphoric from the place Nash mentioned in the other thread.

[GuingesRock]

sorry, Canadian HomeBrew Supplies. I think you went there already: http://www.homebrewsupplies.ca/search/? ... &records=6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think I'm ok with the phosphoric acid I got from the pharmacy. If it's good enough for making medications with, should be good enough for beer. $60 for 100mls though.(enough for 14 x 10 gal batches)

[AllanMar]

Wow, bit rich for my blood. Chbs isn't food grade? That's surprising.

[NASH]

Let's try this one more time - BEBBINGTON INDUSTRIES. BURNSIDE. NOVA SCOTIA $32.75 / GALLON PHOSPHORIC ACID. FOOD GRADE. NOVA SCOTIA. BURNSIDE. ACID. BEBBINGTON.

Can you hear me now??

lololololololololololol

Transmitted from the Hop-phone.

[AllanMar]

I'm gonna get some phosphoric from the place Nash mentioned in the other thread.

[GuingesRock]

Let's try this one more time - BEBBINGTON INDUSTRIES. BURNSIDE. NOVA SCOTIA $32.75 / GALLON PHOSPHORIC ACID. FOOD GRADE. NOVA SCOTIA. BURNSIDE. ACID. BEBBINGTON.

Can you hear me now??

lololololololololololol

Transmitted from the Hop-phone.

$32.75 + taxes + loss of work due to traveling time + gas mileage & vehicle depreciation = about $800 per gallon for me. Also I'm impatient and don't know when I can get down there. Might pick up some next time I'm down. Thanks for the info. If I get a gallon, It would be like my O2, and take me 11 years to use it all.

[NASH]

Mwahahaha! That was my best Frankie impression.

I started typing that a couple hrs earlier in tapatalk, finally had a chance to finish it.

Transmitted from the Hop-phone.

[NASH]

Let's try this one more time - BEBBINGTON INDUSTRIES. BURNSIDE. NOVA SCOTIA $32.75 / GALLON PHOSPHORIC ACID. FOOD GRADE. NOVA SCOTIA. BURNSIDE. ACID. BEBBINGTON.

Can you hear me now??

lololololololololololol

Transmitted from the Hop-phone.

$32.75 + taxes + loss of work due to traveling time + gas mileage & vehicle depreciation = about $800 per gallon for me. Also I'm impatient and don't know when I can get down there. Might pick up some next time I'm down. Thanks for the info. If I get a gallon, It would be like my O2, and take me 11 years to use it all.

I was thinking a group buy for yous guys. Fuck.

Here's what you should do; order a 30 ml vial online for $39 delivered to your door.



Transmitted from the Hop-phone.

[AllanMar]

I am planning to do a Group Buy for both (Lactic and phosphoric), if you've got a way to get it out your way (I'm only down the valley once a year for golf), or want to pay shipping....

[GuingesRock]

Thanks very much Allan, but I just picked up my phosphoric acid from the drug store on the way home. They ordered in the wrong size bottle for me and it was $145 incl. for 500mls. I didn’t think that was too bad. It will keep me going for a couple of years (enough for 700 gallons of beer). I got the run down from the pharmacy tech., don’t spill the slightest drop on a counter top as it will bleach it right away, wear gloves, no contact with skin as you don’t feel it until it has already burnt you, goggles etc.

A group buy might be a good idea, would save an awful lot of money, but I wouldn’t want to be in the vicinity when it was being poured from a gallon jug into smaller bottles. They also said it should be kept in a glass container at the drug store as it is very caustic. They seem to sell it in plastic jugs online. It might need to be a certain type of plastic container ...not sure.

[AllanMar]

Wow, that seems a bit high to me. ~$3 a batch just for pH adjustment. That a pretty big commitment considering some of your skepticism on pH adjustment.

$32 +tax/gallon sounds more up my alley.
I'm not too worried about handling it, I've handled worse and it only takes a bit of common sense and care. Most plastic containers are fine for most acids, there are some plastics out there that will react hence why people typically make those kinds of blanket statements. I prefer plastic in most cases as I'd hate to drop a glass container of strong acid.

I usually use plastic pipettes to dispense it up to 3ml at a time.

[mr x]

145 for half a litre! O_o

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[GuingesRock]

145 for half a litre! O_o

It’s the Real McCoy though …had it flown in specially.

I calculate it will work out at $2 per double batch. No driving to pick up it up. I walk past the drug store on my way home from work. It’s not the same as living in HRM where everything is at hand.

Ps. what does NF stand for on the label?

[AllanMar]

Can't read the pic but I'd assume National formulary standard. A food/drug standard. High grade, but a bit unnecessary IMHO.

No hydroponics stores down there? Don't tell me no one grows pot down there!

[GuingesRock]

Can't read the pic but I'd assume National formulary standard. A food/drug standard. High grade, but a bit unnecessary IMHO.

No hydroponics stores down there? Don't tell me no one grows pot down there!

Nope, not a single hydroponic store to be found. Pot grows abundantly in the woods around here ...you city people.

ps. This is an awesome summary. I read it three times now: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; He's the guy that did the Bru'n Water calculater and also the EZ calculator. Seems like he's done his book work.

[GuingesRock]

ps. This is an awesome summary. I read it three times now: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; He's the guy that did the Bru'n Water calculater and also the EZ calculator. Seems like he's done his book work.

I sent Martin Brungard, the maker of Bru'n Water a $10 donation and he emailed me an upgrade for Bru'n Water. I sent a link to this thread also. He didn't make the EZ apparently so I was wrong there.

Mark,

Thanks for the update. I was unaware of that forum. It looks interesting. Thanks for mentioning the Bru'n Water site. Hopefully it will help more brewers to understand that stuff. By the way, I don't have anything to do with the EZ Water program. That one has a few problems.

Martin Brungard
Carmel, IN

Brewers around the world are a friendly and helpful sort.

[GuingesRock]

I just checked the PH of a glass of beer I'm drinking. The PH is 4.39. The early mash PH was 5.5 and acid malt was used to bring down the PH.

I was reading the Bru'n Water page and it said to check the PH of your beer you have to run it through a coffee filter first to get the CO2 out. I did that and re-tested this beer. It is actually PH 4.3. I now have the experience of more acidic beer. It's sharper and fresher. I'm not sure if I prefer it to my higher PH beers. It isn't like my real ale experience which is softer, smoother and rounder. I bottled some of it off to send to one of these comps and see what they say.

I asked Martin Brungard (the Bru'n Water guy) to help with this thread. He's probably too busy but you never know.

[redoubt]

Kirsten, it isn't just brewing science that's "crap" so don't take it personally.

I think we can safely count brewing science -- and what other people think about it -- among the very many things that I don't take the least bit personally. I just question some of the conclusions you've come to on the basis of your recent experience and research. That's okay, though, we're allowed to disagree.

Just FYI, if you need something else in future that a hydroponics shop might carry, there's a hydroponics shop on Commercial Street in New Minas. http://valleyhydroponics.ca/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Kirsten

[GuingesRock]

I just question some of the conclusions you've come to on the basis of your recent experience and research. That's okay, though, we're allowed to disagree. Kirsten

Discourse and controversy are half the fun of this site. I'm stumbling in the dark. Kirsten, let me know if you can enlighten me, or if I am wrong about anything.

Theory is all well and good, but I stumbled putting it in to practice. Perhaps because I tried to do too much at once. At least I'm getting to experience what too much of this and too much of that does to my beer. At the moment I think I'm happy with the profile of my water as it is, without salt additions, and will limit my experiments to simple (and small) PH adjustments for now and find out what PH I like. Salt and chemical additions and PH adjustments seem to be a whole new area, just like hops and malt, that I probably shouldn't have expected to get perfect right of the bat. There's a lot of trial and error to be done before that point is reached.

Having said that ...my "fucked up" beers have improved a lot over the past week or two.

[Jayme]

I'm inclined to agree with Kirsten... Seems to me there was a lot of research in the Water Book and while there is no concrete formula for pH adjusts, I would argue it's due to the fact there are so many variables. I suspect (feel free to prove me wrong) that if you had the equipment on hand to analyze your malt, water, and whatever else I'm not thinking of at the time of brewing, I bet the calculations would come out pretty much every time. I'm assuming one of the primary reasons the pharmacy grade phosphoric acid is so expensive is due to tight tolerances on the concentration, where as the food grade stuff from Bebbingtons probably has a lower tolerance on concentration (purity may also be a significant difference).

At any rate, I think like everything else, it boils down to cost. If money were no object, I bet you could ensure much tighter controls on everything, making your process entirely repeatable every time. But back to reality, the calculations can get you close, and measurements/slight tweaking should be able to get you dialed in.

All that said, I've only done minor water tweaks for a few years and am only now starting to get into real fine tuning. I hated chemistry in high school and have mostly avoided it since. Reading the water book brought back many a bad memory haha. But I am eager to figure it all out!

I believe to hydroponics store Kirsten mentioned is roughly across the street from the bowling alley.

[GuingesRock]

I'm inclined to agree with Kirsten... .

I wish I knew what it was that you two are agreeing with each other that you disagree with me about. I'm feeling a bit insecure with these blanket statements that you both agree that you disagree with me, with no specifics. No matter any way. I think I'll keep my head down and plod away at it by myself for a bit, and stay out of any further water discussions.

Thanks for the information on the hydroponics place. How did you both know about that place?

[Jayme]

Not so much I disagree with anything you've been saying other than the 'science is crap' bit. I do a lot of scientific research for a living (electronics though, not brewing science of course) and so I guess when you call the hard work of some of these writers 'crap', I get a bit defensive for them (even though I do not know any of these people personally). Anyhow, I in no way meant to attack you or make you feel insecure, but rather not dissuade others from trying to follow and understand the literature.

Calling research that you don't understand BS, is also BS (IMHO). Saying you don't fully understand it, which causes you to question its validity and choose not to follow it is another. In situations like this, I personally try not to call things BS unless I have conducted my own research to disprove/back up my claims. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense you have not done that.

My degree from Acadia was in Music. That's how I know about that place hahaha.

[GuingesRock]

Not so much I disagree with anything you've been saying other than the 'science is crap' bit. I do a lot of scientific research for a living (electronics though, not brewing science of course) and so I guess when you call the hard work of some of these writers 'crap', I get a bit defensive for them (even though I do not know any of these people personally). Anyhow, I in no way meant to attack you or make you feel insecure, but rather not dissuade others from trying to follow and understand the literature.

Calling research that you don't understand BS, is also BS (IMHO). Saying you don't fully understand it, which causes you to question its validity and choose not to follow it is another. In situations like this, I personally try not to call things BS unless I have conducted my own research to disprove/back up my claims. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense you have not done that.

My degree from Acadia was in Music. That's how I know about that place hahaha.

No, not wrong, but I have a lot of training in evaluating studies and examining conclusions, and assessing the validity of those conclusions, as I also work in a scientific field with a strong focus on everything being "evidence based". I also have a solid background in, and understanding of, chemistry and biochemistry. It isn't often that I "don't understand" but I have come across the "bullshit baffles brains" concept from time to time.

When conclusions become so far removed from the evidence, and when the evidence is no longer referenced, and when authors move even further to make sweeping statements without even referencing research. It's starting to move into the realms of crap.

All fair comments by you though.

I still think brewing is, and should be more of an art. The science part is still in its infancy. Your background and Kirsten's (philosophy I believe) could have more relevance. We are lucky to have such a varied resource of skills and perspectives on here. Perhaps the best set of skills for good brewing would be an enjoyment of, and an appreciation for good beer.

[AllanMar]

You know that old saying:
If at first you don't succeed, question the fundemental science behind it.

[GuingesRock]

Brewing did pretty well for hundreds of years, without the damn science.