Fermentation Temperature – Screwing It Up Again.

[GuingesRock]

Hehe touché.

Boiling for 60 vs 90 min isn't going to make much difference. And if u are doing flame out hopping or dry hopping theoretically this would increase the chances of contamination.

Curious. Are u resting the lid on or is sealed?

Jamie you were supposed to say “you can’t do that, it won’t work” in this thread, where I talked about the how and why of this in May. You absolutely don’t have to agree with any of it though, In fact I advise against it. You’ll get more and more confused and start converting trash cans into coolers.

But! I have seen your pictures of brewing in a condo and your innovations to make that possible, hoses running from the deck above etc. I’ve got my eye on you. I think there’s a lot of potential there.

[ottiscan]

Hi Guinges,

I use a mini wort chiller in my conical during the height of summer, it's 3/8" copper with 1/4" vinyl lines. Gasp!!! Cue the verbal assault! I know there's an argument against copper in your beer but some UK breweries use open copper fermenters. SS tubing is available also. I had the same problem, temp shot right up to 27. The chiller brought it down to 21 with a slow trickle of water, after 2-3 days of turning the chiller on and off intermintedly(sp)the temp stabilizes and I pull it out and use the wet towel method if I have to, ambient temps are better now though. The beer stays in the conical for 2 weeks. If you are on well water it would be even better, the water temp entering my house in HRM suburbia is 21 degrees. That seems to be getting a little cooler now with peak summer over. Well water should be quite a bit cooler. The cool nights lately kept my latest brew down to 22 degrees in the basement so didn't need to add the chiller but did put a couple towels in pans of water on it and ran the fan for a day or two, down to 20 degrees. It's at 19.5 now with no chilling devices going, once heavy ferment is complete the temp stabilizes and the large volume of beer maintains a steadier temperature.

[GuingesRock]

Hi Guinges,

I use a mini wort chiller in my conical during the height of summer, it's 3/8" copper with 1/4" vinyl lines. Gasp!!! Cue the verbal assault! I know there's an argument against copper in your beer but some UK breweries use open copper fermenters. SS tubing is available also. I had the same problem, temp shot right up to 27. The chiller brought it down to 21 with a slow trickle of water, after 2-3 days of turning the chiller on and off intermintedly(sp)the temp stabilizes and I pull it out and use the wet towel method if I have to, ambient temps are better now though. The beer stays in the conical for 2 weeks. If you are on well water it would be even better, the water temp entering my house in HRM suburbia is 21 degrees. That seems to be getting a little cooler now with peak summer over. Well water should be quite a bit cooler. The cool nights lately kept my latest brew down to 22 degrees in the basement so didn't need to add the chiller but did put a couple towels in pans of water on it and ran the fan for a day or two, down to 20 degrees. It's at 19.5 now with no chilling devices going, once heavy ferment is complete the temp stabilizes and the large volume of beer maintains a steadier temperature.

Thanks Lew, That was very useful. I was thinking a plastic tube even, wound around the outside of the fermentor with a trickle of water running through might also work.

For people who ferment in the kettle, and I’m not sure many do. The picture Ladd posted here would be ideal for this kind of fermentation temperature control, as well as wort chilling. Couldn't BIAB though in that.

I wonder how I could install a permanent or semi-permanent cooling coil around the outside of the pot. Perhaps a long roll of copper tube would cling to the pot because they are supplied tightly coiled on a roll, and are thus supplied ready formed to cling to a pot.

[ottiscan]

Plastic tubing may work, it wouldn't be as efficient, but if it was constantly running and you weren't worried about water consumption it might be just enough to maintain a lower temp., especially if you had colder water running through it.

[GuingesRock]

Plastic tubing may work, it wouldn't be as efficient, but if it was constantly running and you weren't worried about water consumption it might be just enough to maintain a lower temp., especially if you had colder water running through it.

The conductivity of plastic is less for sure and the coil is not immersed. But if I used 2 – 3 times the length of tubing, that might compensate.

I’m trying to get my head around whether a copper external pot coil would cool wort adequately. If it did, I’d be all set with a wort chiller AND fermentation temperature control system. Less efficient because the coil is not immersed, but I could use a much longer coil to compensate for that.

[GuingesRock]

Is there some kind of plastic tubing that wouldn’t mind being tightly wound around the top ¾ of a boil kettle and left in place during the boil. Ready to be hooked up to cold water at the end of the boil for wort chilling. And later to be used for fermentation temperature control when fermenting in the kettle.

I think silicone tubing might be a bit too expensive.

[ottiscan]

I'm not sure what would be the best type of plastic tubing, there is a flexible, yet rigid plastic tubing I've seen used with water softeners, etc.. Maybe, after wrapping the kettle in tubing you could also wrap over that with reflectix, but leave the top uninsulated to allow heat to dissipate, that way you wouldn't be cooling the air on the outside of the tubing.

Found a micro-brewery using a copper coil for temp control in their conicals on the web, a picture similar to mine is about halfway down the page.

https://www.facebook.com/OdysseyCraftBreweries" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jacinthebox]

I'm looking to invest in a free Ferm fridge...lol...Lagering in the summer without one = no lagering for me

My basement is always 18-22 degrees so ferm temps are not an issue for ales

[GuingesRock]

I'm not sure what would be the best type of plastic tubing, there is a flexible, yet rigid plastic tubing I've seen used with water softeners, etc.. Maybe, after wrapping the kettle in tubing you could also wrap over that with reflectix, but leave the top uninsulated to allow heat to dissipate, that way you wouldn't be cooling the air on the outside of the tubing.

Found a micro-brewery using a copper coil for temp control in their conicals on the web, a picture similar to mine is about halfway down the page.

https://www.facebook.com/OdysseyCraftBreweries" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you ottiscan. I'm seriously thinking of buying 100 ft of 1/2" silicone tubing to bind around the top 3/4 of the pot. Cost would be around $160 but It would allow for completely sanitary wort cooling as well as fermentation temperature control.

[LiverDance]

For that price, why don't you just buy a freezer or fridge off kijiji and a temp controler?

[Jayme]

Or for that matter, just buy copper tubing... Silicone is an insulator and you really want something conductive. Since you're putting this on the outside of the kettle, you could probably get away with a less expensive metal as well, though copper is probably the easiest to find and is fairly malleable.

I'm not sure what your water situation is, but it might also be worth considering buying a small (very small) fridge, a small pump (doesn't have to be a high temp pump), and create a closed loop for cooling.

Even if you don't pay for your water, you're going to waste a hell of a lot of a precious resource over the span of a few days, even if it's a slow trickle (which I don't think will even help much should you go with silicone).

[GuingesRock]

Or for that matter, just buy copper tubing... Silicone is an insulator and you really want something conductive. Since you're putting this on the outside of the kettle, you could probably get away with a less expensive metal as well, though copper is probably the easiest to find and is fairly malleable.

I'm not sure what your water situation is, but it might also be worth considering buying a small (very small) fridge, a small pump (doesn't have to be a high temp pump), and create a closed loop for cooling.

Even if you don't pay for your water, you're going to waste a hell of a lot of a precious resource over the span of a few days, even if it's a slow trickle (which I don't think will even help much should you go with silicone).

Jayme, I thought about the copper and it's difficult to maintain points of contact with the outside of the pot. Also the silicone tubing would flatten slightly against the pot wall, providing a higher contact surface area for heat exchange. That's one compensation for the lower conductivity of silicone vs. copper. My other compensation is to have 100ft of silicone tubing in contact with the outside of the pot.

I'm hoping wort chilling with this would have a similar efficiency to an immersion chiller, and to bring temperature down on a fermentor I might only have to run it for half an hour or so at a time. So I wouldn't be wasting too much more water....hopefully.

[jason.loxton]

Damn.

I just wrote a long response, but the Internet ate it.

Anyway, quickly here you go again.

1) I agree with everyone else. It isn't that you *can't do it*. It is that it doesn't make any sense to do it. It is easier and cheaper to just transfer to a secondary that you can control (you can pick carboys up and walk them to a cool spot in your house and you're done--I did that for years and maintained good control). With a good pitch and basic sanitation, contamination just isn't an issue. (As an aside, how do you aerate your wort? Or don't you do that either?)

2) The method you outline doesn't make a lot of sense: silicone is a terrible conductor and a constant water flow is both wasteful and inevitably going to result in a end of fermentation temp. drop--probably while you're sleeping--as the yeast stop producing sufficient heat to offset the cooling; your yeast will probably prematurely crash. Here are three ways I can think of doing what you propose better:

a) Brew IN a fridge/freezer. That way you don't have to move your pot. Install a single electric element. Put your kettle on wooden blocks in the freezer. When you're done, just close the freezer door and you're golden. (I think I remember that you let the temp drop naturally.) (You're still going to need a controller.)

b) Make a copper external system,as you propose, but recirculate water or glycol through it with a pump and controller. Like this: <http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/view ... 17#p464891>. You're going to need copper, insulation, a controller, a fridge, and a thermowell.

c) A hybrid system. Put an internal stainless coil in, like the poster above, and use connections that allow you to switch between your faucet (for chilling) and the set up in 'b' above (for control). You'll need the above, plus hardware for installing your kettle. Dave sells all that stuff.

You can get a simple $70 pump that will serve your needs at OBK.

Again though, the whole issue could be avoided, while gaining a bunch of benefits, by transferring and single vessel fermenting.

[Jayme]

Jayme, I thought about the copper and it's difficult to maintain points of contact with the outside of the pot. Also the silicone tubing would flatten slightly against the pot wall, providing a higher contact surface area for heat exchange. That's one compensation for the lower conductivity of silicone vs. copper. My other compensation is to have 100ft of silicone tubing in contact with the outside of the pot.

I'm hoping wort chilling with this would have a similar efficiency to an immersion chiller, and to bring temperature down on a fermentor I might only have to run it for half an hour or so at a time. So I wouldn't be wasting too much more water....hopefully.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/therm ... d_429.html

This chart shows the thermal conductivity of some common materials. While there isn't solid silicone, there is silicone oil, which is good enough to illustrate my point. Silicone is 0.1 and copper is 401 (W/(m.K)). As you can see, the order of magnitude is considerably different.

All that is to say, even 100 feet of silicone tubing is likely not going to do the job. I would suggest before forking out that kind of money, crunch the numbers and make sure it even stands a chance. It's a rather pricey experiment!

It is also possible to flatten copper somewhat. At work, we make large coils (inductors) out of regular copper pipe and flatten them somewhat so they're easier to attach to haysight. It would be harder to do at home without the proper tools, but if you're careful/patient, you could do it.

[GuingesRock]

Jayme, I thought about the copper and it's difficult to maintain points of contact with the outside of the pot. Also the silicone tubing would flatten slightly against the pot wall, providing a higher contact surface area for heat exchange. That's one compensation for the lower conductivity of silicone vs. copper. My other compensation is to have 100ft of silicone tubing in contact with the outside of the pot.

I'm hoping wort chilling with this would have a similar efficiency to an immersion chiller, and to bring temperature down on a fermentor I might only have to run it for half an hour or so at a time. So I wouldn't be wasting too much more water....hopefully.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/therm ... d_429.html

This chart shows the thermal conductivity of some common materials. While there isn't solid silicone, there is silicone oil, which is good enough to illustrate my point. Silicone is 0.1 and copper is 401 (W/(m.K)). As you can see, the order of magnitude is considerably different.

All that is to say, even 100 feet of silicone tubing is likely not going to do the job. I would suggest before forking out that kind of money, crunch the numbers and make sure it even stands a chance. It's a rather pricey experiment!

It is also possible to flatten copper somewhat. At work, we make large coils (inductors) out of regular copper pipe and flatten them somewhat so they're easier to attach to haysight. It would be harder to do at home without the proper tools, but if you're careful/patient, you could do it.

That's good stuff Jamie, thanks and I'll definitely look into that. There is also the issue of the conductivity of the SS pot walls.

Perhaps plumbing in an internal SS coil is a better way to go. I'll look at the numbers you gave me. One other factor is that since I can have the lid on during the chill, I won't be worried about the length of time it takes to chill as I won't have a pot of warm wort exposed to open air, as happens with a normal immersion chiller.

[Jayme]

Perhaps plumbing in an internal SS coil is a better way to go. I'll look at the numbers you gave me. One other factor is that since I can have the lid on during the chill, I won't be worried about the length of time it takes to chill as I won't have a pot of warm wort exposed to open air, as happens with a normal immersion chiller.

I think you're on the right track now! You could easily upgrade a system like that to a simple closed loop with a cheap temperature controller (~$10), a cheap pump (~$10-20), and a very small used fridge like this:

[GuingesRock]

Jayme, I don't give up that easily

Here's some more things for me to consider.

1) Air has to be one of the worst conductors of heat, so placing a 10 gallon pot in an air conditioned room, or a fermentation chamber, would have to be one of the slowest and least effective options.

2) Some sources I have googled suggest the thermal conductivity of silicone tubing is about 1.3. Copper is about 400. A silicone coil which was ten times the length of a copper coil, and had 3 times the surface area contact (due to flattening of the tube), would produce a similar heat transfer.

That fridge has a thermoelectric unit in it, with very low output. I have the cooling unit from one of those attached to my trash can contraption pictured above. But good thinking.

Those water coolers that have the 5 gallons of drinking water on them have similar thermoelectric coolers, but set up for cooling liquids.

[Jayme]

Here's some more things for me to consider.

1) Air has to be one of the worst conductors of heat, so placing a 10 gallon pot in an air conditioned room, or a fermentation chamber, would have to be one of the slowest and least effective options.

2) Some sources I have googled suggest the thermal conductivity of silicone tubing is about 1.3. Copper is about 400. A silicone coil which was ten times the length of a copper coil, and had 3 times the surface area contact (due to flattening of the tube), would produce a similar heat transfer.

1) If it is in a well insulated fermentation chamber, the heat transfer may be slow (comparatively), but still quite efficient. I do agree an air conditioned room would be extremely inefficient though - I have done it in fact, and it costs a lot (electricity)/it's whole lot harder to control than a small chamber.

2) How do you plan on flattening the silicone tubing? Granted it's flexible, but that lack of rigidity means unless you have something rigid to keep it flat, once you pump any amount of water through it, the tube will revert to a... tube shape. Flattened copper would retain its shape. Also, your ratio of 30:1 is not the same as the ~400:1 ratio of the thermal conductivity.

[GuingesRock]

Here's some more things for me to consider.

1) Air has to be one of the worst conductors of heat, so placing a 10 gallon pot in an air conditioned room, or a fermentation chamber, would have to be one of the slowest and least effective options.

2) Some sources I have googled suggest the thermal conductivity of silicone tubing is about 1.3. Copper is about 400. A silicone coil which was ten times the length of a copper coil, and had 3 times the surface area contact (due to flattening of the tube), would produce a similar heat transfer.

1) If it is in a well insulated fermentation chamber, the heat transfer may be slow (comparatively), but still quite efficient. I do agree an air conditioned room would be extremely inefficient though - I have done it in fact, and it costs a lot (electricity)/it's whole lot harder to control than a small chamber.

2) How do you plan on flattening the silicone tubing? Granted it's flexible, but that lack of rigidity means unless you have something rigid to keep it flat, once you pump any amount of water through it, the tube will revert to a... tube shape. Flattened copper would retain its shape. Also, your ratio of 30:1 is not the same as the ~400:1 ratio of the thermal conductivity.

1.3 x 3 (for 3x surface area) = 4 multiply by 10 (for 10xlength) = 40. Yes I got the math wrong. Sorry.

If I wind the tubing around the pot tightly, I think it would flatten, also as the cold water passed through it there would be shrinkage and the tubing would become tighter. Very little water pressure, so I don't think enough to correct the flattening.

Thanks for all the help on this.

[Jayme]

I don't think you would multiply 1.3 x 3... Not that 30 or 40:1 is that much different comparing to 400.

I guess if the pressure is low enough, it might hold shape. Though I disagree that shrinkage would make it tighter - it would become looser as the ID of your silicone loop would also shrink.

Have you got any short pieces of silicone tubing kicking around? You could always just wrap a single loop around to try it and see how it will behave. Actually, you could probably even fill the pot with room temp water, do a single loop and run cold water for about an hour. Measure the temperature of the water before and after (also would need to know the temp of the water flowing through the tube). From there you could roughly estimate how effective 100 loops might be.

[GuingesRock]

Yes, Thanks, I think an experiment with a small ss saucepan and some tubing is a good idea, and extrapolate from there. I think I have 6 feet of silicone tube. Its a bit complicated to extrapolate as there are other factors like temperature gradient from one end of the silicone tube to the other, but the difference may not be that significant since the silicone is a poor conductor.

[dexter]

Not to mention that the ss of you kettle and your sauce pan could be different

[Jayme]

Yes exactly - it won't be a definitive test, but it should give you a better idea on the feasibility.

[LeafMan66_67]

Just reading BYO and saw an ad for this

http://www.brewjacket.com

Makes a whole lot of sense.

[Jayme]

That's slick! Kind of funny they have an add in BYO considering they seemingly didn't make it past the funding stage. Judging by the kick starter, they value one at around $300 too which is a bit steep. Great idea though! Might not be too difficult to build something similar. My only concern with their design would be if you do primary/secondary in a single carboy (like me), I could see blow off being an issue...