Making Real Ale

[GuingesRock]

Iirc if you try pure nitrogen, you're beer goes flat over time. Cheaper to use a cask breather anyway.

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Of course! didn't think of that, thanks! According to kinetic theory, CO2 would move out of the beer through Brownian motion and into the head space until the CO2 in the head space equalised with that in the beer, as the keg got emptier and emptier from pouring the beer, and the head space got larger and larger, the more CO2 would be lost from the beer and the flatter it would become.

[GuingesRock]

My afternoon off…

I cut 1 ½’ off the dip tubes as advised with a tube cutter, had to twirl it around and around many times because it’s SS, but eventually it cut through neatly. When I looked at the dip tubes in the kegs it looked about right to me.

I then kegged a US-O5 beer that was brewed on Sunday (3 days exactly to the hour since it was pitched). It was fermented in the brew kettle with the 1 lb late hopped Cascade leaf hops left in there. I have a bazooka screen in there to keep the leaf hops out of the kegs.

The beer was still in “high krusen”, which in my case is a 4 – 6” mass of krusen and leaf hops floating on the surface. The hops had wicked up the krusen. After a week that all usually settles to the bottom of the kettle. Running the beer to the kegs from the kettle tap, from underneath that, worked very well and I was very pleased with that. Doing it that way, I think, achieved the same thing as a surface krusen skim at high krusen, as apparently is recommended and done by all the real ale breweries.

The beer was milky and warm as it came out, so I think the yeast was still active, tasted nice. I checked the OG and I was initially disappointed to find that it was 1.01 which was my expected FG, but after letting the sample stand it went to 1.012. I’m hoping there is enough left to carbonate the beer naturally. If it doesn’t work out, I’ll force carb it a bit, and next time keg after 2 days instead. I purged the kegs, and purged the head space at 5PSI. I had a larger head space than I should have for this to work well, so next time I will up the batch size a little. The head space should be small, like in a cask, so the natural carbonation is more effective.

My plan (unless anyone persuades me otherwise) is to now leave the kegs at normal fermenting temperature for two weeks and then put them in the keezer set to cellar temperature and attach CO2 at 5 psi. I ordered some of OBKs “Australian style faucet guns” (shown in a post above), and I will hook the beer lines from the kegs to those. They have 3” spouts, but that’s long enough to pour, real ale style, to the bottom of a Brewnoser Belgian glass.

I picked up some US-04 today, I think that would be ideal.

I will refer to it as “real ale” (please see posts above for discussion on this)

Thanks a lot for all the help with this, for the leads and the great advice. It is very useful to discuss something when you are trying to work through it also.

I’m excited about this. Probably still some refinements needed, so let me know if any other concerns etc.

[JohnnyMac]

Johnnymac is set up with a cask, breather and handpump. Be warned, there has been an 'episode', lol.

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Yup, been casking for a couple of years now, probably running about four casks per year.

As X said, using a 5 gallon pin, cask breather and engine setup (1/2 pint Colin Farrar engine). I brew 10 gallon batches so when the beer is about 2 plato above target FG, I fill up the pin (the other 5G gets the standard keg routine) and add a priming solution (4oz dextrose to 1 pint water) and let it condition for about 2 weeks at room temperature and then breach with a hard spile and adjust the carbonation with a soft spile which usually only takes about 2 days. The tap gets whacked in then it's into the keezer at 10-12C, the breather gets installed and its pints away. I also normally dry hop the pin during filling and have a hop screen installed in my cask tap.

Picked up the pin, breather and start up odds and ends at UK Brewing back in the day: http://www.ukbrewing.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Picked up the engine from an older gent in the valley about 6-7 years ago through Kijiji for $50.

I also have an older Golden Gate keg (7.5 gallons) that I converted to cask. I might be willing to let that go if someone was interested.

The episode that Rob is referring to is that I over primed (I think) a cask and during conditioning, it built up enough pressure to blow the shive bung and soak the basement ceiling in porter. Not fun.

[mr x]

I think Greg blew out a bung once too.

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[adams81]

An engine for $50? Well done.

[GuingesRock]

Really nice setup! I'm envious. The engine is a thing of beauty.

The keezer looks nice too, with the bare wood around and painted black. Seems to show off the engine nicely. Could almost put that in an old pub somewhere.

Using Corny kegs for conditioning, instead of casks, a person could have a setup exactly like yours, including cask breather, and have maybe 3 - 4 beer engines on the front. It would be like a mini English real ale pub. Might need to set up some bar stools in front of it

If I get the real ale side of things how I like it, I might make something like that, hope you won't mind if I copy your ideas on that. Love it!

Here is a new beer engine that doesn't look too bad. Not as nice as an old one though.

Ps. Experience with using a mop on the ceiling is a sign of a true home brewer, and is included in this list: http://www.tastybrew.com/humor/

pps. checked my kegs this morning and they are under pressure...Yay!

[GuingesRock]

JohnnyMac, Does the beer in the pin lose any of its carbonation with the breather, after a few weeks, or does it seem to hold? Does the breather use up much CO2 or is it a closed system? Does the low pressure in the pin lead to loss of carbonation also after a few weeks? Do you have a shutoff valve with the engine for when not in use, or is that not needed. Thanks in advance for any advice on that.

[GAM]

I think Greg blew out a bung once too.

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I said pardon?

Sandy

[JohnnyMac]

JohnnyMac, Does the beer in the pin lose any of its carbonation with the breather, after a few weeks, or does it seem to hold? Does the breather use up much CO2 or is it a closed system? Does the low pressure in the pin lead to loss of carbonation also after a few weeks? Do you have a shutoff valve with the engine for when not in use, or is that not needed. Thanks in advance for any advice on that.

Although not a lot, the beer does lose some carbonation as the pin empties. Using the breather creates a closed system so little CO2 is used as the breather controls the input of CO2 to replace the headspace in the pin. I have mine set to 7 PSI so once the beer carbonation level equalizes with the headspace pressure, no further carbonation loss will occur. I don't have a shutoff valve at the engine, just one at the tap which I don't touch. I've made a practice of leaving the tap handle forward (towards me) after pulling a pint as the pushing back motion fills the engine chamber with beer. Otherwise, the first pull will be warm....

[GuingesRock]

Thanks very much, and sorry, one more question about the shut off valve thing. The Northern Brewer beer engine, that I posted a video of in the first post, continues to constantly drain beer out of the spout and they recommend a shutoff valve. With your engine and positive pressure in the pin, do you find that happens....I'm thinking it doesn't with your setup and that might be a design fault with the Northern Brewer one?

Thanks

[GAM]

http://halifax.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell ... Z513923750" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They may need some modding, but they should work.

Sandy

[GuingesRock]

If I make real ale like this, in the kegs with the shortened dip tubes; can I dry hop by throwing loose pellet hops in the kegs and pouring the beer on top of them. They would sit in the keg for 2 weeks and then the keg goes into cellar temp for a day or two minimum. Could I be reasonably sure that by that time, the pellet hop debris would have settled to the bottom of the keg and would not be sucked up by the dip tubes which I have shortened by 1 1/2"?

If so, then shortening dip tubes might facilitate dry hopping with normal kegging, and might negate the need for retaining hops in mesh bags etc.

Ball lock Cornys are designed for Pepsi, I think. The fact that the dip tubes go to the bottom of a well at the bottom of the keg doesn't seem to be the best setup for beer. The shape of the bottom of the keg is such that anything like hop debris would settle right into that well.

I hope I remain happy that I shortened my dip tubes, as I won't be able to lengthen them again, but I have read of home brewers that routinely do that. I haven't read anything about whether it simplifies dry hopping in the keg though.

If it works, the hops would have to be left in for the duration as they could not be retrieved. Is there a big problem with leaving them in? I think they used to do that in the old days with the casks of IPA.

[bluenose]

Anyone think this could be rigged up as a beer engine?
http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/produ ... 6676769452

[JohnnyMac]

Thanks very much, and sorry, one more question about the shut off valve thing. The Northern Brewer beer engine, that I posted a video of in the first post, continues to constantly drain beer out of the spout and they recommend a shutoff valve. With your engine and positive pressure in the pin, do you find that happens....I'm thinking it doesn't with your setup and that might be a design fault with the Northern Brewer one?

Thanks

Just watched the NB video, the reason theirs is draining is that they have the keg above the engine, creating a siphon rather than vacuum pump. If they put the keg on the floor rather than on the table, it wouldn't trickle. My pin is below the level of the engine and doesn't trickle at all. If you were going to have your keg above the pump then you would definitely need a shutoff valve.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks,

I kegged this after a 3 day ferment at 1.012 with an expected of 1.01. It’s been in the keg for another three days and I just rigged up a tyre pressure gauge to the gas post. Is there a better setup for checking pressure?...although this seemed to work fine and didn't leak any pressure, which I was concerned about.

It is at 15 PSI. I think that’s going to be nicely naturally carbonated. I’ll put into cellar temperature in 11 days’ time, although one of the kegs is going in there in a week as a CartoonCod is coming by next Sunday and I said we would try it out.

[mr x]

I don't see anything wrong with that setup.

[GAM]

Mark I may be pasing WolfV Sunday afternoon. I'll see if the Wife is up for a stop by.

Don't wait around for us. It is a maybe.

Sandy

[mr x]

Anyone think this could be rigged up as a beer engine?
http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/produ ... 6676769452

I've been looking at that for days, and I want to say 'that's fucked', but maybe not....

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[GuingesRock]

Mark I may be pasing WolfV Sunday afternoon. I'll see if the Wife is up for a stop by.

Don't wait around for us. It is a maybe.

Sandy

Sandy, Be great to see you again, and meet your wife. I'm feeling the pressure now! I hope it's good but it will be fresh, maybe too fresh. Anyone else feel free to drop by Sunday 25th just after lunch.

Oh, and anyone who is coming, bring swimming gear if the weather is good...we have a pool with a shallow end for kids.

[GuingesRock]

Here’s my solution to pouring real ale style from the keg conditioned ale. I found some tubing that shoves tightly inside the cobra spout. I tried it, it didn’t leak. It poured to the bottom of the glass, and pushing the end of the tube against the bottom of the glass caused it to squirt into the beer, similar to the effect of a sparkler, and created a better head and a more creamy mouthfeel.

Easy to pull the tube out to clean it. It’s also a portable set up. I was thinking if I needed to take the beer anywhere, I could move it off the yeast and hops with a keg jumper to a 2.5 gal keg, and set off with that and one of these modified cobra taps.

One keg is at 18 PSI today and the other is at 16, naturally carbonating away.

[GuingesRock]

My second batch of "real ale" at the weekend, kegged after 3 days isn't working out for keg conditioning as the kegs are not building up any pressure. The kegging after 3 days worked well with the US-05 batch from the week before. This latest batch was US-04 and I think it ferments a bit faster than the 05 and maybe "drops out" quicker so not enough yeast transferred to kegs maybe. Also My fermentation temperature was too high (I'm sorting that out) so maybe with correct fermentation temperatures the 04 might work, or even kegging after 2 days. the 04 batch had finished after 3 days and was at the expected 1.01 gravity. It isn't wasted though as I will lightly carbonate by hooking it up to CO2 at 5 psi for a bit.

I'm thinking of calling this "keg conditioned beer, using traditional real ale conditioning methods" or similar Gobbledygook. I don't think I can call it "real ale" as it will be dispensed with the aid of low pressure CO2.

Are you dropping by on Sunday Sandy, CartoonCod is still coming. I'm going to try the first real ale batch then Just don't mention the word diacetyl

[dean2k]

Without knowing much about how real ale goes from the fermentor to the cask, wouldn't the diacetyl be a result of racking to the cask after only 3 days? I would think that the yeast wouldn't have enough time to clean up or metabolize the diacetyl .

[GuingesRock]

Without knowing much about how real ale goes from the fermentor to the cask, wouldn't the diacetyl be a result of racking to the cask after only 3 days? I would think that the yeast wouldn't have enough time to clean up or metabolize the diacetyl .

Oh, but the yeast goes with the beer it into the casks/kegs and it keeps fermenting and has a much better chance of cleaning up diacetyl therefore, but it is occurring in the cask instead. I'm pretty sure it was my fermentation temperatures, and also the beer that jtmwhyte tried (not real ale) and reported back diacetyl was put in the keezer too early, which was probably more to the point, and in keeping with what you are saying. I think I'm going to be ok on that score with correct temperatures and the longer conditioning time in the keg.

The idea with real ale is the beer goes through secondary fermentation and natural carbonation on the yeast in the casks/kegs, and the beer is also drawn over the surface of the yeast in the bottom of the cask as it is poured, which is said to impart certain flavours that are enjoyed by real ale lovers.

Thanks for the help and input

[dean2k]

So all the yeast cake/sediment goes back into the cask/keg? Interesting.

[adams81]

Thanks for all of the reporting on this GRock. Following your experiments and research is making for a very interesting thread!