Critical Analysis and Development.

[Jimmy]

Is it just lacking in bitterness? I don't know much about FWH, but I would think 1lb would be enough to get some decent bitterness.

Also, there's no need to aerate your dry yeast (unless you're repitching from a starter or slurry)

[GuingesRock]

Thanks guys! I’m getting there, I think, and with your help. I’m going to dry hop this one and maybe it will mask it a bit. My fermenting temperature might be a bit high at 22 – 25C but the weather is cooling down a bit. Is that the problem? Jtmwhyte and his wife noticed butterscotch, my wife and I can’t taste it, but if it is diacetyl, does that impart a sweet taste. I know it’s a long shot, but Styrian Goldings hops wouldn’t be sweet? I also pitch at around 80 – 85F. Is that anything to do with it? Should I cool to a lower temperature before pitching.

X, I like the high ABV beer, so I’m doing it with the real ale regardless. I’ve seen those beers pumped in England, and I liked them

[Jimmy]

AFAIK, high fermentation temperatures, combined with racking the beer off the yeast early would both contribute to diacetyl. Leaving the beer on the yeast for a longer period of time gives it the opportunity to clean up the diacetyl.

[mr x]

V. cilurzo has mentioned that 1056 gives off diacetyl over 69. Maybe the same with - 05.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[Jimmy]

I guess I should rephrase that. AFAIK, initially warm fermentation temperatures followed by non-optimal fermentation conditions can cause higher levels of diacetyl. The yeast will generate higher levels of diacetyl in the beginning stages with a warm fermentation, and if removed from the yeast cake too early, or the temperature drops enough, you increase the chances of the yeast not being able to clean up the diacetyl.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks Jimmy, that’s awesome! I haven’t tasted the real ale yet, but do you reckon that, since I’m now kegging after 3 days and I am leaving it in the keg to finish fermenting in there, with the real ale thing, that might solve the issue, since yeast is being transferred to the keg? (it was quite milky)

I’ll need to get some of the real ale beer to jtmwhyte for testing. Is it a genetic thing tasting diacetyl? I’ve read many brewers, including one beer judge and very advanced brewer, say they can’t detect diacetyl.

Thanks also X. That might be the problem!!!

[Jimmy]

If racking too early is the cause, transferring the yeast to the keg will likely solve your problem.

[Jimmy]

This book is definitely worth picking up. I'd say most off flavors are cause by fermentation issues and this book basically covers everything yeast/fermentation related.

http://www.amazon.com/Yeast-Practical-F ... 0937381969" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GuingesRock]

Thanks Jimmy, and I have that book. I bought it to take to England, but had too much fun there to read. I'll get stuck in to it.

[jtmwhyte]

One quick note I noticed as I reread Mark. You said the fermentation room was at 21-25. If that is the case the beer may be in the high 20s to low 30s as an actual fermentation temperature. I would think you would definitely see some detrimental effects from US-05 at that temperature. I'll be trying the Champagne Cascade tonight to see if some of those same flavours show up.

[GuingesRock]

Sounds good Trevor, Thanks! Let me know if you have suggestions to fix the sweetness issue, and if you find the other one sweet too please. It has the same 27.5 lbs of malt, but it's Pilsen, and instead it is late hopped (15 mins) with 1 lb cascade leaf in 10 gal. Same fermentation regimen, although I kegged and cellar temp after 1 week ferment. OG 1.07 and according to my notes FG 1.007 (was supposed to be 1.01) = ABV 8.6.

Thanks



ps. Trevor, I had a glass of Champagne Cascade last night, and I think it is past its prime. Its 42 days since it was brewed. I liked it best 4 weeks ago when I posted pictures by the pool. If it isn’t up to snuff don’t bother much with the write up. I have a new batch kegged for the real ale experiment. Those Dollarama $3 SS bottles hold a pocket of air under the lid when you put them on, I've been concerned about that. The new ones I have from CT don't have lids like that.

[GuingesRock]

One quick note I noticed as I reread Mark. You said the fermentation room was at 21-25. If that is the case the beer may be in the high 20s to low 30s as an actual fermentation temperature. I would think you would definitely see some detrimental effects from US-05 at that temperature. I'll be trying the Champagne Cascade tonight to see if some of those same flavours show up.

Thanks Trevor,

I cooled yesterday's US-04 10 gal batch to 27C before pitching and left it overnight in an air conditioned room with a wet towel over it. The thermometer beside the fermentor this morning said 21C but the thermometer strip and also the pot thermometer (I ferment in the kettle) both showed the Temperature inside the fermentor to be 31C. I'm going to have to re-think this whole thing. I have an old cooler with a mini compressor that runs off a vehicle's 12V supply. It has a 110 volt transformer with it. I'm thinking of building a box to fit over the fermentor, taking the workings out of the cooler and attaching them to said box.

Perhaps the slight sweetness is an attenuation issue due to the high fermentation temperature. I have to get on and read the yeast book, but I'm really stuck in to the Cellarmanship book and can't get away from it for the next day or two.

The ideal fermenting temperature for 04 is 15 - 20, so what temperature should the fermentation chamber be set at please? what temperature should I pitch at? and does anyone think the box over with car cooler workings attached idea would work?

How rigorous do I need to be with fermentation temperature control for ale?

Thanks

[mr x]

Pitch at 70f or less. I've done 72F when i was in a rush, but I knew the room was cool enough to bring it down within 8 hours. I would imagine the fermentation chamber should be 5f lower than the desired temp.

Fermentation control is the number one control after sanitation. There's not much use reading that book on cellaring until you master the basics.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks! This little journey on here has been very useful for me...and is much appreciated!

[GuingesRock]

More ways than one way to skin a cat

X, the reason I didn’t read a yeast book before was there was one that was like the bible on yeast, and people kept quoting crap from it, like you MUST re-hydrate dry yeast before pitching. I don’t think it’s the same book that I have though (the one that Jimmy recommended).

[GuingesRock]

OK, I’m reading the yeast book. White Labs did a study (page 96) and the results for Diacetyl show a perception threshold for diacetyl of 150 ppb. The beer fermented at 19C in the study had 7.56 ppb diacetyl and the beer fermented at 24C had only a slight difference in Diacetyl at 8.23 ppb. Big difference in Acetaldehyde (perception threshold 10ppm, green apples flavour) levels 7.98 vs 152.19 with the warmer fermentation.

I need to be pitching at 2 -3 degrees below desired fermentation temperature, after first few days finish fermentation at higher temperatures for ales.

I won't keep copying the book, but it's answering all the questions I had and more.

Fascinating book! Thanks for the recommendation Jimmy.

[GuingesRock]

The blankets and the 12V car cooler (see pictures above) worked well for my needs. So today I ubgraded from blankets to a garbage bin from Home Depot to put over the fermentor.

With the blankets, the car cooler cooled 10 gallons of beer by 7F over 3 days during active fermentation.

If I pitch at the correct temperature (around 20C) it should work well. I read the yeast book and if I keg for the keg conditioned beer after 3 days under the bin, and then move to a room at 21-23 for 2 weeks, it should be just the ticket! I’m hoping anyway.

The cooler is one of those that can warm as well as cool if needed.

I cut a hole in the side and glued in a magnifying glass (minus the handle) so I can view the thermometer on the kettle which I ferment in.

[jeffsmith]

Nicely done, Mark! I can't tell easily from the pictures, how cool are you able to keep things with that setup?

[sleepyjamie]

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1377132669.129432.jpg

Wife won't let me do yeast starters on the stove anymore.

[GuingesRock]

Nicely done, Mark! I can't tell easily from the pictures, how cool are you able to keep things with that setup?

Jeff, it isn't very powerful. It will take me a few brews to test it out as I only made it this afternoon. I'm hoping it will provide a 20C chamber within a 25C room, that's all, and I'll be pleased if it does that. No need to rig it up to a temperature controller, nothing too much happens in 12 hours with 10 Gal of beer in there. I'll be checking it morning and evening and turning it on or off, or leaving it at those times.

If a person really wanted to go to town, maybe they could take the workings out counter top 110V fridge, you'd have to be careful with the high voltage and water etc.

that 10 gal pot would be difficult to lift into a fermentation chamber so I liked the idea of plonking something over the top.

It may not be much use at all, but I'll let you know. I had fun making it. Wrapping the car cooler next to the pot with blankets seemed to work ok though.

[GuingesRock]

I don’t know if the heat pump (Peltier thermo-electric cooling module) is strong enough for that size container. It’s only down 2C after being left on all night with nothing in it. The fans on both sides of the heat pump are working. I think it would work with a smaller garbage bin over a 5 gal carboy though.

I like those heat pumps as they are totally silent, the whole thing makes about as much sound as a computer. Does anyone know if I can find a bigger one? Maybe 110V if they exist. They are also perfect because if you run the current through them one way they cool, reverse the current and they warm.

Perhaps there aren’t any 110V ones available because they have to be DC (AC won’t work). Here’s how the 12V cooler heat pumps work:

According to the on-line Encyclopedia Britannica, in 1834 French physicist Jean-Charles-Athanase Peltier discovered that when two copper wires are attached to a battery and joined by a length of bismuth wire, a temperature drop occurs at the junction where current passes from bismuth to copper and a temperature increase occurs where the current passes from copper to bismuth.

Modern thermoelectric units take advantage of this effect by bonding two plates of dissimilar semiconductors (commonly bismuth and telluride) to create a heat pump. One side of the unit will be heated by the Peltier effect, the other side will be cooled. Which side is cooled depends on the direction of the current. By placing aluminum fins on the unit to aid in distribution of the heat or cold produced and channeling the air into the insulated box, the storage temperature can be raised or lowered by 40 to 45 degrees F from ambient.

Manufacturers of 12-volt coolers take advantage of the potential reverse gradient by offering a heating cycle on most models. The heat cycle is achieved by switching the positive and negative poles on the power plug. Since the Peltier effect depends on the constant flow of electrons in one direction, only DC power can be used on these thermoelectric units.

What I want to do is chill to 20 maybe with the wort chiller, then use the contraption to hold 10 gal at 20C for the critical first 3 – 4 days, in a room that might go up to 25 in the summer. Perhaps I should just get a window air conditioner. I also have one of those free standing air conditioners, at work in the basement, not being used, that has the two hoses. I could hook it up to the garbage can some how. That has a built in thermostat and humidity control, and that thing would work for sure. It is pretty noisy though.

If I did use the free standing portable AC, it isn't the window hoses I would need to hook up to the bin. They could simply be left off as the room then becomes the outside the bin becomes the inside that is to be cooled. Somehow I would need to hook up the air intake and output that passes through the grills on the front of the machine to the garbage bin, perhaps using manifolds and the window hoses.

Any suggestions appreciated. I'm not giving up on this without a bit of a fight at least.


I don’t think it is worth insulating the garbage can as plastic is quite a good insulator, and I’m only looking for a temperature differential between the inside and the outside of 5C.

[CartoonCod]

Did you think about putting the carboy in a shallow pool of water (a few inches), then wrapping the carboy in cotton fabric which is long enough to reach the water, then pointing a fan at it? I've heard reports that this kind of evaporative cooling can keep the temps down a few degrees C, but I've never tried it. Of course this method doesn't work in high humidity environments.

[GuingesRock]

Did you think about putting the carboy in a shallow pool of water (a few inches), then wrapping the carboy in cotton fabric which is long enough to reach the water, then pointing a fan at it? I've heard reports that this kind of evaporative cooling can keep the temps down a few degrees C, but I've never tried it. Of course this method doesn't work in high humidity environments.

Thanks, yes, but I'm trying to develop something for a 12 gal ferment in a 16 gal pot. Not the normal kind of setup I know.

Did a quick search and so far this is the largest thermoelectric cooling unit I found: http://www.topfreebiz.com/product/41747 ... 20110A.htm

[GuingesRock]

CartoonCod came by today and analysed all my beers for me. He detected every minor fault he could and went through possible causes. Most of them I think were due to incorrect fermentation temperatures. I did recognise exactly what he was saying when he pointed things out to me.

To have someone who has recently gone through a beer judging course, offer to come to your house like that, and help you with advice on how to improve your beer was amazing.

Jtmwhyte, I’m glad you didn’t report back on the Champagne Cascae…something’s happened to that along the way…even I couldn’t drink it today, it’s gone acidic.

I’m starting again with proper fermentation temperatures. Actually I had done that already because of advice on this thread. I learnt to identify some more faults today.

We had a great afternoon with CartoonCod and his family, drinking the real ale and then went to the Port pub for supper.

Thanks Adam!!! Very much for your personal coaching, and thanks also to Trevor for doing much the same thing, and to the other guys on this thread for the online coaching. I’ve learnt a lot in a short couple of weeks.

[Ladd]

…something’s happened to that along the way…even I couldn’t drink it today, it’s gone acidic.

Oh man, sorry to hear that. I know exactly how that feels. I just dumped out 40+ bottles of pumpkin ale yesterday that went brutally acidic. Any idea what bug caused it? Did it have a vinegar smell or taste? I am still not sure what got mine, it turned sour super fast (less than two weeks) which made me think it was acetobacter. Could have been anything though I guess. Time to go super anal with the sanitizing and kick some nasty unwanted bug ass!