Fermentation Temperature – Screwing It Up Again.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks Matt,

Good ideas. Thanks!

I started scouting on OBK for fittings that might also work.

Also, How about quick connects on the coil to snap it into place inside the pot?

[ottiscan]

A double walled kettle would be awesome. Currents created by the working yeast would stir the beer around giving allowing contact with the cooler kettle wall.
There must be one somewhere. Industrial kitchens use large vats to cook soup, etc., they are heated by a steam jacket around the pot. Something like that would work.
They are stainless steel and probably very expensive though.

[jason.loxton]

GuinessRock: Here's a link on copper and other metals: http://byo.com/stories/projects-and-equ ... omebrewers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Copper is a double-edged sword in brewing. It is beneficial before fermentation, but detrimental afterwards. Copper ions react with the hydrogen sulfide produced during fermentation and reduce it to insoluble copper sulfide, which is left behind with the trub and yeast cake. Switching to all stainless steel brewing equipment can lead to noticeable quantities of hydrogen sulfide and sulfur off-flavors and aromas in the beer. The use of copper wort chillers will provide all the copper necessary, as will including a short piece (1 inch) of copper tubing in the boil.

Copper is a problem post-fermentation because it catalyzes staling reactions, including the production of hydrogen peroxide and can oxidize the alcohols to aldehydes. Finished beer should not be stored in contact with copper, although serving beer with copper tubing in a jockey box should not be a problem, because of the short contact time immediately before serving.

Copper pennies will also work in the boil to supply necessary copper, as will brass, but the caveat with both pennies and brass is the zinc. While zinc is an important nutrient for yeast growth, it can be too much of a good thing. Corrosion of brass can cause increased acetaldehyde and fusel alcohol production due to high yeast growth when zinc concentrations exceed 5 ppm. Excess zinc can also cause soapy or goaty flavors. But like copper, brass is usually stable in wort and will turn dull with regular use as it builds up a passive oxide layer."

I still think the options I laid out are your best bets. Simply boiling with an electric element in a freezer/fridge might be your easiest path. Slow chilling, but easy. Either that, or recirculation from a reservoir of water or glycol. Other people have used a tight copper wrap combined with insulation for temp. control (see the link in my previous post). I think you're best going with Option #3 in my post though: a stainless permanent coil that can function as chiller, temp. control, and--if you wanted it--a HERMS system.

I hope you won't take offense at this, but if you haven't, I'd recommend reading through some of the books in the 'reading list' post or checking out podcasts like Brewstrong. Your idiosyncratic way of brewing aside, many of the questions you have/ideas you're trying are addressed well in books like Palmers (the copper question is a good example). There's a wealth of good brewing science available out there, but much of what exists in various forums and blogs is pretty crappy.

[ottiscan]

There is some concern, more so with wine I think, that copper will dissolve above the allowable 0.5(0.05?)mg/l level when in contact with the beer/wine.

I don't understand that when you have a look at these Whelsh and Belgian open copper fermenters, found in a quick search. The beer in these are in contact with much more copper and for a much longer time than having a small wort chiller in the fermenter for 2 or 3 days the way I do it.

And, I think that there is a giant copper fermenter chiller in that giant copper ferementer in the third picture.

[jason.loxton]

I expect that many of these precautions are demonstrable in the lab, and of use to professionals looking for high quality repeatability in very light beers, but that, given that our beers tend to be so flavour rich (and masking of imperfections) and, well, imperfect and imprecise, not nec. distinguishable in our homebrews. (I think that is what is going on in part with no chill brewing, etc.: the science is what it is, but it just might not transfer to the real world experience of tiny home brewers).

That said: where it doesn't cost a lot of extra money, it worth defaulting to best practices just in case, I think.

[Jayme]

I just checked my tap water with a thermapen and it is 19C. If the immersion coil in the fermentor was inadvertently left running it would never get too cold, and might never get below 20 – 21C.

Bear in mind you're measuring at the time of year when water sources tend to be at their hottest... In the winter it will likely drop a lot - more like 5C kind of thing.

[jason.loxton]

GuingesRock: Just realized that you actually started the recommended reading section. Sorry if my comment read as condescending. (I would really recommend Brew Strong though for getting into the nitty gritty of this stuff.)

Also: I have been typing GUINNESSrock--I guess we see what we want to! Ha.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks Jayme for the water temp tip. This is all new to me.

Jason, absolutely no offense taken at all. In fact a big thanks for taking the time to prepare that information for me. I also liked your ideas and suggestions.

Thanks also to Ottiscan for the excellent counter argument.

I haven't had time to fully digest everything as it's busy at work, but I think I might be ok installing the copper coil in my kettle (I think that's what I am going to do) because I am only leaving the beer in there for 4-5 days (same as Ottiscan) before moving to a keg for conditioning. Jason, you have alerted me to problems to look out for and I can always switch to SS later if necessary.

Guinness is my posh name. But feel free to drop the formality and call me Guinges or anything else...."persistent bugger" seems to be a common one that I hear from time to time

[ottiscan]

It wasn't an argument, lol, don't get me in trouble. He posted as I was writing my post.
Lew

[GuingesRock]

What's the best way to drill holes for half inch fittings (maybe 3/4" holes needed, I'll have to check) in my beautiful heavy gauge SS Bayou Classic Pot.


Matt, you probably thought about it already, but be careful not to have ball valves on both ends of the coil. If they were closed and you heated the coil with water present in the coil, something would blow from pressure build up.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks very much Guys!!! for all the help and advice!!!

I BIAB, but I don’t pull the bag. Instead I have two pots, mash + small sparge in one and drain to the second pot through the ball valve. The pot in the picture will be my second pot (boiling and fermenting pot) with built in wort chiller and fermentation temperature control.

No leaks!

I’m all fixed up and ready to go.

[Jayme]

Looks good! Now for some trial results...

[LeafMan66_67]

Looks good Mark!

[LiverDance]

Funny pic, it looks like there is no bottom in your kettle as it almost matches the tile

[Ladd]

Nice job man! Let me know how it works out! I am still undecided if I want to go this route or buy a pump for my counter flow chiller.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks guys, I’m trying it out today, so I’ll let you know how it goes.

What would be the most practical and most sanitary way to attach a hose to transfer beer from a ball valve to a keg, I’m thinking of switching to ½” silicone so I can boil the hose.

I have been using a length of tube that has a quick disconnect on it that I soak in a bucket of Starsan. It’s a 10 gal batch, so after I have filled the first keg I pull out the tube with my hand and put it into the second keg. I first dunk my hand in the starsan bucket. My starsan dunked hand touches the side of the tube when I do that. I spray inside the open end of the ball valve with Starsan before I start. I’m trying to rethink this.

Perhaps I should have a separate tube for each keg for starters. I am also thinking I should boil the tube with the quick connect on it. The ball valve is heated at 100C for 90 minutes during the boil, as I ferment in the kettle, but kegging occurs several days later and there is time for contamination to creep into the ball valve from the outside. I had been putting a screw-in stopper into the outside opening of the ball valve before the boil and removing it just as I am ready to transfer the beer. I don’t know how much that helps though, and lately I have been removing it to check SG to know when to keg, so that’s a recipe for disaster I’m sure as there may be beer sitting there for a day or two, and a few blasts of starsan into the outside opening of the tap won’t necessarily do the trick.

I’m hoping someone might have some ideas and suggestions as to how I could make this system work better, without me having to change to a complete new system, or switch to using a syphon etc.


Thanks

For one part of this problem I’m thinking of putting a tap on the side of the pot, about half way up. The tap has a standard neoprene tap washer and can tolerate boiling temperatures. I chose this style tap rather than a ball valve, since when a ball valve is shut off, the ball rotates and could potentially transfer infection from beer that had been sitting in the tap spout, into the fermentor as it rotates.

The purpose of this tap will be solely for drawing gravity samples from the fermentor/kettle so that I know when to transfer to kegs for keg conditioning. Hopefully it should enable gravity samples to be withdrawn without risking contamination of the contents of the primary.

[GuingesRock]

I tried this pot today. I think it worked well. It took an hour and fifteen minutes to cool 13 gallons to 20C according to the thermometer at the bottom of the pot and I pitched. After I pitched I felt the top of the pot and it felt a bit warm, I guess because there was no stirring. After another 15 minutes the top of the pot felt to be at body heat and then I relaxed. I’ll check in the morning and if the yeast isn’t going crazy, I guess I will have killed it and I will re-pitch. Next time I will wait longer before pitching. I did do the olive oil thing.

I was very happy that I could put the lid on (sanitised in the oven) at flameout, and not neurotically have to keep my family away from pot, and frantically go around with a fly swatter. I also was very pleased that I could hook up the quick connect water lines and walk away, without having to keep stirring and looking at the temperature. Since the tap water is at 19C I could relax that it wouldn’t get too cold.

One thing I would advise is to tip the pot on its side before you start and drain the coil. I didn’t do that and the coil ports merrily spurted out boiling water and steam when the boil started.

Live and learn!

There’s no way! that my fermentation temperature will get out of hand now. I’ll watch it like a hawk and hook the water up to the coils at the slightest sign of trouble. I will be particularly watchful on day two.

I’m so glad you people talked me out of putting a silicone tube around the outside of the pot.

Thanks!

[jason.loxton]

I think your next step is automating your temp control. Ideally, recirculate a liquid (glycol or water) from a fridge/freezer. That would require a thermowell, controller, pump, and cooling source (fridge/freezer). Alternately, I wonder if you could use your set up like it is now, but put a sprinkler controller on the tap. The simplest set up would just turn the water on at intervals with a timer (this would require you knowing what the fermentation curve of your beer is going to be; tricky unless you're often making the same beer). A more complicated system that still used your tap as the cooling source could have a temp. controller that turned on an off an old school plug in sprinkler controller.

Just some thoughts.

[AllanMar]

With cooling so slowly, do you have a problem with chill haze? or do you just not care? or is that just a myth about slow cooling and chill haze? haha

[GuingesRock]

Jason, some very interesting thoughts there! Makes me wonder whether the concept of an automated BIAB mashing pot, boiling pot and fermentor, combined in one vessel, with full temperature control, both heating and cooling, might be a possibility. To cool, it would need a double wall, with glycol, like you say, or maybe water, running through the space between the two walls, with the “in” tube at the bottom on one side, and the “out” tube at the top, on the opposite side. To heat, it would need a heating element. That’s if the concept of fermenting in the same vessel that you mash and boil in is a valid one. Some, perhaps many, would argue against that on theoretical grounds. I’d like to keep improving my brewing to a level where I might win something at a competition to give it some validity.

Allan, that’s faster than I usually chill with my immersion chiller, and a lot faster than a commercial brewer can chill a full batch (I think), and I haven’t noticed a chill haze problem...and then there’s the no-chill people, who I had quite a lot of discussions with when I was on the Australian run BIAB site, and I don’t recall them reporting a problem with that, but I’d like to learn more about speed of chilling and chill haze, if anyone has the time and the energy.

[GAM]

The purpose of this tap will be solely for drawing gravity samples from the fermentor/kettle so that I know when to transfer to kegs for keg conditioning. Hopefully it should enable gravity samples to be withdrawn without risking contamination of the contents of the primary.[/quote]


In the Rock Bottom Greg uses 70% (I think)in a spray to sanitize valves and fittings prior to connecting for transfer etc. I line ball valves because they are easier to clean and you can see the surfaces. That said I don't use them in this capacity.

Sandy