Repeated Infections *UPDATE*

[mr x]

In the top example om this page, have you tasted both beers?

[mattvincent24]

X, yes i tried both beers along with every other infected batch beside the ones in primary right now, all have had less body, less flavour, and no head retention. Also the odd phenolic flavours. The Scottish had the vinyl taste, the brown had vinyl/smokey flavour, and the wit had something else that i could not really put my finger on. I've done all of these recipes before with no problems, and even in the infected batches the flaws did not show themselves for a couple of months. Remember i do 10 gallon batches, usually keg 5 gallon pretty quickly and the other 5 gallon sometime down the road. First kegs fine, second has the problems.

[mattvincent24]

so, i kegged a beer tonight (brown ale pictured on 2 page), it taste great just how it should. The FG was 1.017, exactly where the last batch finished. Thats 68% attenuation which is on par with the yeast (wyeast 1968). I put a 500ml sample in a flask and placed it in a room thats about 22-23 degrees (beer fermented at 18C and sat at 16C after fermentation). Ill keep an eye on it and see if fermentation restarts and in a month or so ill taste it and check the gravity. thanks again everyone for your interest and you suggestions. I'll be sure to update you guys when i have something new.

[akr71]

X, yes i tried both beers along with every other infected batch beside the ones in primary right now, all have had less body, less flavour, and no head retention. Also the odd phenolic flavours. The Scottish had the vinyl taste, the brown had vinyl/smokey flavour, and the wit had something else that i could not really put my finger on. I've done all of these recipes before with no problems, and even in the infected batches the flaws did not show themselves for a couple of months. Remember i do 10 gallon batches, usually keg 5 gallon pretty quickly and the other 5 gallon sometime down the road. First kegs fine, second has the problems.

I don't understand, does this mean one carboy gets kegged while the other carboy sits around for an extra month or so?

My first phenolic infection last year showed up after a lager sat around for too long at a high temp (somehow the thermostat got changed & I didn't notice it).

[mattvincent24]

[quote="akr71"

I don't understand, does this mean one carboy gets kegged while the other carboy sits around for an extra month or so?

[/quote]


yup, thats it. my basement where i ferment doesn't get above 19 or 20, even in the middle of summer. right now its 15 or 16C. Beer should be able to sit in the carboy for a couple of months shouldn't it? I'm some of the beers with off flavours and visual signs of infection were 9-10% hop bombs. Those at least should have a pretty good shelf life.

[mr x]

I try not to leave beers in carboys that long. I'd eliminate that practice.

[mattvincent24]

I try not to leave beers in carboys that long. I'd eliminate that practice.

X, can you explain your reasons for this? From what I’ve read, autolysis shouldn’t be an issue in that time frame, especially if the beer is racked off the yeast. And some beer improves greatly with some extended aging, if there’s no infection of course. Is there something I’m missing?

[mr x]

Just that you are having infection issues - start eliminating unnecessary steps. Some beer will age well, but that can be done in bottles or kegs.

[mattvincent24]

That would work for sure, and really that’s kind of what I’m doing now, brewing less and drinking it young, but I really won't be satisfied until I can brew a batch without a film with a shelf life that my beers used to have.

[mattvincent24]

Do I have unreal expectations here guys? Anyone else have problems with “bulk aging” beer in carboys?

[know1]

With the mention of phenolics, bleach residuals comes to mind. I wonder if the hot soaking in oxiclean is opening up some micro-fissures somewhere in your gear and allowing compounds to penetrate in which are drawn out later during transfer/contact?

What about the container you use to mix starsan? Probably unlikely but might be also worth a good boiling water rinse before mixing up some fresh solution.

[know1]

Do I have unreal expectations here guys? Anyone else have problems with “bulk aging” beer in carboys?

all conditions ideal,it shouldn't be a problem but for now, your conditions are not ideal and it adds an element of extended exposure albeit at the trade off of one less transfer.

[CorneliusAlphonse]

With the mention of phenolics, bleach residuals comes to mind. I wonder if the hot soaking in oxiclean is opening up some micro-fissures somewhere in your gear and allowing compounds to penetrate in which are drawn out later during transfer/contact?

What about the container you use to mix starsan? Probably unlikely but might be also worth a good boiling water rinse before mixing up some fresh solution.

The bleach/oxyclean rinsing could be an issue.. Make sure everything is being rinsed well after washing with oxyclean or bleach, before cleaning with starsan. Warm water, double or triple rinse I'd usually what I do, depending on the situation - depending on how hard your water is, it might not rinse very easily.

[Jayme]

I have experienced autolysis from bulk aging in carboys. Carbonating the beer also drops the pH slightly/provides a virtually oxygen free environment for the beer. Still won't solve your contamination issue, but could help slow microbe growth.

[mattvincent24]

I have experienced autolysis from bulk aging in carboys.

Cool! How long did it take? What temperature? What did it taste like? Sorry for all the Q's, i just find this stuff really interesting.

[Jayme]

It was a pretty severe under pitch that sat for about a month or two at ambient. It tasted horrible! Pretty hard to describe/it was quite a while ago now.

[mattvincent24]

so, i kegged a beer tonight (brown ale pictured on 2 page), it taste great just how it should. The FG was 1.017, exactly where the last batch finished. Thats 68% attenuation which is on par with the yeast (wyeast 1968). I put a 500ml sample in a flask and placed it in a room thats about 22-23 degrees (beer fermented at 18C and sat at 16C after fermentation). Ill keep an eye on it and see if fermentation restarts and in a month or so ill taste it and check the gravity. thanks again everyone for your interest and you suggestions. I'll be sure to update you guys when i have something new.

So.... I have finally got some more news to share on the above. I finally tasted and checked the gravity of the sample of the brown i kegged on the 18 of march. First off, i didn't really see any airlock activity throughout the time that the sample sat in the flask. A very thin, hardly noticeable film did appear a couple of days after transfer. Here's a couple of pics of the film. The camera really amplifies the visibility of the film, it almost looks oily.

IMG_0192.JPG

IMG_0187.JPG

Also, some yeast did settle out.

IMG_0185.JPG

So after the photo shoot i first smelled the beer and it smelled fine. Checked the gravity and it dropped from the 1.017 68% attenuation to 1.010 81% att. That to me was not a good sign. Anyways i tasted it and to my surprise it actually tasted better than it did on the day i kegged it. It had thinned out for sure which is not a good thing as i was going for a bigger body with this beer, but the flavour was really great.

So this got me rethinking this whole situation. Maybe i don't really have a problem here and i'm just being too picky (as usual). With no off flavours and the fact that the film doesn't grow or develop over time makes me believe there is no infection. And I'm sure its possible that the aeration from transferring to the flask and the rise in temp could of kick started the yeast into a secondary fermentation, explaining the drop in gravity. The only thing is, since this batch i have brewed twice more. This time being even more super anal (If thats even possible) about cleaning and sanitizing, even soaked everything that touched the wort in acidified bleach overnight, and still both batches have a similar film.

So here I am, not really sure what more i can do about this. I will definitely keep taking small samples of my brews and testing it as i did with the brown. I will also try the wort stability test next time i brew (can't believe I haven't done this already). Other than that, I'm not going to worry about it until I start getting some real funky off flavours.

Thoughts?

[mr x]

It's not uncommon for me to have a film like that on my beer. i get paranoid for 7 seconds, then move on. I don't see anything there that makes me think that flask sample is fucked up.

[mattvincent24]

It's not uncommon for me to have a film like that on my beer. i get paranoid for 7 seconds, then move on. I don't see anything there that makes me think that flask sample is fucked up.

And its probably time for me to move on too. But if you had this type of thing consistently would you still feel the same way? I think if I pass the wort stability test i'll feel a whole lot better about all of this. Anyone here ever tried it? I'd be interested in your results. Maybe i should start a new thread for that one.

[sleepyjamie]

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