Urban Grape Discounts

[Downs]

I certainly hope my posts weren't considered spreading negativity about NG.
I tend to be pretty open and honest but that goes both ways, when I had what I feel was pretty poor service I posted about it.
I also posted though when Steve emailed me back which I thought was some pretty great, direct customer service.

I guess there are a few points here that needs to be addressed.
From the club side what exactly does it mean to be a member.
And I guess from NG's side what that means in terms of a discount and what it takes to get that discount (if you guys don't just say screw us we're not worth it
And some consistency around that between locations/staff.

My 2 pennies anyway.

[erslar00]

Hello. My name is Steven Haynes. For those of you who don’t know, I’m one of the owners of Noble Grape.

First off, I wanted to comment on a post...erslar00 mentioned that that we discontinued the beer kit stamp cards which is true.... but we absolutely honoured all of the cards that were out there. Not sure why you thought we didn’t, but just so you know... it isn't true.

Sincerely,
Steven Haynes
Noble Grape (and Brewnoser since 1989)

Steve, The reason I brought that up was because I had bought several kits at the old Sackville location and after the fire the first time I went into the new location a gentlmen there told me that the program was discontinued as the cost of ingredients had gone up and my card was not stamped... That's why I brought it up... Perhaps it was a miscommunication with you and your staff but that's what happened.

Larry

[Timothy Doane]

Hello,
Although I've been a long time lurker and only a registered member a short time (only enjoying the discount a short time aswell) I work eveninings and many Saturdays and am never able to attend meetings, me picking up a card would be difficult.
Tim

[chalmers]

I certainly hope my posts weren't considered spreading negativity about NG.
I tend to be pretty open and honest but that goes both ways, when I had what I feel was pretty poor service I posted about it.
I also posted though when Steve emailed me back which I thought was some pretty great, direct customer service.

I guess there are a few points here that needs to be addressed.
From the club side what exactly does it mean to be a member.
And I guess from NG's side what that means in terms of a discount and what it takes to get that discount (if you guys don't just say screw us we're not worth it
And some consistency around that between locations/staff.

My 2 pennies anyway.

Don't feel bad about sharing your experience with their staff. As I said in the other thread, that employee's shitty attitude on extract brewing has nothing to do with our discount.

[chalmers]

Thanks very much for the post, Steve.

The only issue some of us "real" members have been having is the inconsistency of the Brewnoser discount: what is the percentage we are entitled to, and to what products. Various people have been told 10%, others 15%, and sometimes it is on everything in store, sometimes brewing-only items, or only grain and hops (not extract kits). Is there an official word on that?

And we definitely appreciate that the discount is not for non-members. If you check Foursquare again (https://foursquare.com/v/noble-grape/4b ... 20fc3037e3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), you will see that the tip you are referring to was removed. As soon as I mentioned to the group that it was there and you didn't approve of it, it was removed (this would have been a couple of months ago).

As for what constitutes a member of the Brewnosers, this is where there might be different interpretations, but as you are giving the discount, you certainly have the right of final refusal. To me, a member is someone who has attended meetings/events, and/or contributed to the discussions on the forum. While the forum is not a physical meeting place, I would argue that there is plenty of useful information and discussion on here, and members' contributions are meaningful. This does mean that some members do not live in the HRM, and may be a part of the great service you offer by sending out supplies by Canada Post to the guys in Cape Breton and New Brunswick (I've never heard a complaint about this service).

When we spoke in person a couple of months ago, we still hadn't hammered out a way for us members to identify ourselves as such, and keep out the imposters. We now have some Brewnosers business cards, could this be something useful to use (still a membership card, I guess, so maybe not)? Or should I create a database of members? Or do you have a database of supposed members that we can peruse, and help weed out people who are not actual members?

Again, we really appreciate the discount that Noble Grape has been giving to the Brewnosers, and want to work with you to keep it beneficial and profitable for all of us.

Chris McDonald
Brewnoser Member since 2007

[mr x]

I'm not interested in defining 'brewnoser' by geography - contribution to the group is of far more importance. That includes people from Newfoundland to New Brunswick. As far as the rest of it goes, NG and chalmers should hammer this out once and for all and make the terms clear in writing.

[bluenose]

agreed...

A brewnoser from New Bruniswick, PEI or Newfoundland is the same as Brewnoser from Nova Scotia

If you prick them, do they not bleed
If you tickle them, do they not laugh, and
If you give them copious amounts of beer, do they not drink until they become spilly?

[Graham.C]

The following thoughts are from someone who lives far outside HRM (hell I live outside NS) and uses the brewnoser discount.

1) The SAAZ guys and I all shop and NG whenever we can. I am honored that I get a discount for bringing my business over 200km, and therefor make an effort to do so. Honestly, if that discount was removed I would probably still shop at NG when I needed something but would shift more of my shopping to the internet. I feel grateful that it is offered to people like me for being part of this community and try my best to bring my business to NG because of it.

2) The idea of membership cards was tossed around. I know that prototypes were also printed. Some people suggest that they would be too difficult to get because they can't attend meetings, but Canada Post is not entirely dead and a stamp still costs less then a buck. The bigger issue is the workload of someone building, defining, and maintaining a list of who is and is not a member. Odds are that people who try to get cards are supportive members, but that's just my $0.02.

3) There is no better store for picking up a smack pack or an oz of hops when you are in a bind. If it wasn't for NG I wouldn't have brewed my first dozen batches. I love what NG offers and wish there was one closer to me (it would make getting others into the hobby easier). I only joined up with the BN a year ago but it seems to me that across these forums there is mostly praise for NG and not negativity, with a couple exceptions (this thread being one). I think most of us really appreciate what NG does for this community and just want to say so.

[LeafMan66_67]

If it weren't for Noble Grape, I wouldn't have started brewing. My wife got me a starter kit 4.5 years ago and all of my batches have been purchased through them. Even though the new Sackville store doesn't have grain in stock, it doesn't take a lot of effort to drop by the store, make a phone call or drop an email a week ahead of time to place an order. The guys are always friendy and know me when I walk in. Service is always great so I have no complaints. Even when I showed up at closing time in Burnside, the guys were still obliging and put together a quick order for me, something I wouldn't have expected, snce it isn't my usual store. Keep up the good work NG.

[derek]

In my opinion (and again, I mean no offense), the club feels like it has taken on a "bulk buying group" persona. I feel as though there has become an "us against them" attitude towards us from some members and it really worries and saddens me.

Why? [actually, that's a whole bunch of whys. Why do you think the fact that a good part of our forums are devoted to group buys is a bad thing (either for us, or you); why do you think it's 'us against them', and why should that worry or sadden you?] We have become large enough that we need to bulk buy. We do bulk buys, and we buy from Noble Grape, and there's no reason that the two should be in conflict. I still bet that your customers who claim a brewnoser discount typically buy more, and more often, than your average customer.

I will acknowledge that there probably have been occasionally minor issues with various staff members that might be contributing to this. I am not making excuses for bad customer service, but try to understand their perspective: Sometimes people walk in on a busy day with 2 “all grain” recipes and expect staff to be able to put them together on the spot. This just isn't practical. It takes too long. We can not possibly have enough staff on hand to accommodate this type of service. It is a self serve bulk section.

Actually, that comes as a surprise to me. I can't say I'd ever noticed anything at Burnside suggesting the grain section was self-serve. I just walk in, someone always jumps to offer help, I tell them what I want and they get it. And I usually do that 5 minutes before closing. The only self-serve I usually do is to browse through the liquid yeasts to see what you currently have in the cooler. So I'd say your service has always been perfect for me.

[Jayme]

Having just finally read this thread, I have a few thoughts/opinions.

I in no way wish to put Noble Grape down. However, I think the responsibility of who does and does not receive a discount should be on them, not the club. Before I heard tell of the Brewnosers, I was buying 2 extract kits per week from them. Eventually, someone told me about the discount, I joined the list serve and started getting the discount. I didn't really start participating until about a year ago really. Does this mean that until I first met up with some of you guys I shouldn't have been getting a discount? IMO, no!

I think Noble Grape should simply offer a 10% (or 15%) to anyone. As in advertise it - however, the stipulation would have to be that you're buying $X.XX of supplies from them. As in a volume discount. I worked in retail for a long time, and from my experience that's how most businesses operate. Your best customer's get a discount. I don't care if you're a Brewnoser attending every meeting - if you only buy $5 worth of yeast from NG once a month, why the hell should you get a discount over someone buying 8 beer kits a month that is not a Brewnoser at all?

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is if NG has a problem with randoms off the street asking for a discount it's up to them to police it. I think my solution is very logical - base it on sales, not status.

[SteveH]

Hi again everyone,
I just thought I’d take another chance to respond to a few of the comments that have come in since my original post. Thank you everyone who has thrown some positive feedback out. It is very much appreciated.

Here goes:
Bluenose wrote: “Just throwing this out there, but what if Noble Grape helped organize group buys for their Brewnoser brothers... might be a way for everyone to win a little..”

Of course we would be willing to look at an option like this, but as you can see from later posts, there would probably be resistance to an idea like this.

Derek wrote: “Why would we even want to do that? They couldn't sell us malt for the price Robert does, so we (who as a group are likely their best customers) would be basically giving them a gift.
Patronizing NG is not "buying local", but I do it regularly anyway, because they're the best source of small quantities of just about everything.”

There are people out there that like the idea of supporting their local shop. The AHA in particular always urges people to support their local shop when possible instead of bypassing them.
The thing is that a strong brewing community and a successful local shop are mutually beneficial. Of course there are all kinds of arguments for shopping in your local community but most of us know these already. I have to ask though why you consider ‘patronizing Noble Grape’ not buying local? We’re as local as it gets. This one has me puzzled. We are a small independent business owned and staffed by people from HRM. How is that not local? Mark and I grew up here, started with one store and have grown over 19 years to where we are today. We support countless charities and causes. We employ 25 local people. What is your definition of buying local?

Larry wrote: “Steve, The reason I brought that up was because I had bought several kits at the old Sackville location and after the fire the first time I went into the new location a gentlemen there told me that the program was discontinued as the cost of ingredients had gone up and my card was not stamped... That's why I brought it up... Perhaps it was a miscommunication with you and your staff but that's what happened.”

Sorry Larry. There might have been a miscommunication between me and this particular staff member, or between him and you. My apologies in any case. That was certainly not our intention. If you still have the card, I will gladly honour it. If you don’t, I will start you a new one. You can email me directly at steve@noblegrape.ca.

Chalmers wrote: “Don't feel bad about sharing your experience with their staff. As I said in the other thread, that employee's shitty attitude on extract brewing has nothing to do with our discount.”

I agree with this but an even more effective approach in the future might be to share it with me. I always appreciate feedback and need to know if someone is experiencing bad customer service before I can fix it. (steve@noblegrape.ca)
Also, I don’t understand where this employee’s attitude toward extract brewing came from but I can assure you it is isolated (and he has been spoken to). The truth is that most of our staff (including the employee in question) are extract brewers (as opposed to grain) and are more comfortable in this ream anyway. I would guess that 20% only are grain brewers. The rest make kits, Festa, and recipes.

Chalmers also wrote: The only issue some of us "real" members have been having is the inconsistency of the Brewnoser discount: what is the percentage we are entitled to, and to what products. Various people have been told 10%, others 15%, and sometimes it is on everything in store, sometimes brewing-only items, or only grain and hops (not extract kits). Is there an official word on that?”

This is something we are currently working on and hope to have an answer shortly. We are also reviewing a few of our prices to see if there can be some reductions.

Mr. X wrote: “I'm not interested in defining 'brewnoser' by geography - contribution to the group is of far more importance. That includes people from Newfoundland to New Brunswick. As far as the rest of it goes, NG and chalmers should hammer this out once and for all and make the terms clear in writing.”

Fair enough, as far this forum goes, I don’t blame you for not wanting to limit it. Don’t forget though that you guys changed the definition of what the Brewnosers is. It used to be a beer club. Now it’s an on-line forum. I personally think if you had called it something different, besides Brewnosers, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing for the brewing community; I’m just saying that it has caused complications for us. Regardless… we are working on a solution and hopefully can figure something out.

Derek wrote: “Actually, that comes as a surprise to me. I can't say I'd ever noticed anything at Burnside suggesting the grain section was self-serve. I just walk in, someone always jumps to offer help, I tell them what I want and they get it. And I usually do that 5 minutes before closing. The only self-serve I usually do is to browse through the liquid yeasts to see what you currently have in the cooler. So I'd say your service has always been perfect for me.”

Regarding this, I have always asked staff to always help when they can. This creates the catch 22 of creating bad feelings when they can’t. If the staff are busy, let them know that you don’t mind doing it your self and they will help you whenever they can. Also, Burnside is a slightly different situation as well because there are usually extra staff there doing other things (packaging, picking orders, etc). This means that it’s less likely to happen that we can’t help right away. The down side is that it sets a precedent that might not be able to be lived up to in another store on a busy day.

Derek also said: “We have become large enough that we need to bulk buy.”

I’m not sure I understand this statement. I would understand if you said, ‘We have become large enough we deserve to bulk buy’ (I wouldn’t necessarily agree with it but I would understand it
Anyway, that’s why we have our bulk section. So you can “Bulk Buy” If pricing is an issue, let’s sit down and I’ll see what we can do. You’re correct that I probably can’t match prices if we’re buying from essentially the same suppliers, but I could definitely sharpen my pencil on bulk purchases, and you would have the advantage of picking up at a slightly more leisure pace and feeling good about supporting your local home brew shops. Just a thought, (and yes, I know it wouldn’t be popular with a couple people who only value price, but remember, it’s still cheap to make beer. The difference we’re talking about would be pennies per bottle).

Jayme wrote: “I think Noble Grape should simply offer a 10% (or 15%) to anyone.”

If we did this Jayme, we’d have to raise our prices. Remember, 61 cents out of every dollar spent at Noble Grape goes directly to cost of goods. (By other retail standards, our gross margin is actually very low.) This only leaves 39 cents out of every dollar to spend on rent, staff wages, employee benefits, electricity, business occupancy tax, etc, etc, etc.
Therefore, 15% of $1 would actually equal 38.5% of our gross margin.
If we gave too many people a discount, we would have to raise prices or risk not being able to pay the bills.
This actually gets to the heart of the matter as to why this is becoming an issue. When it was 12 people getting a discount, it had very little effect on our gross margin. As soon as the percentage of total customers getting a discount gets high enough that it can start affecting that margin, it becomes a concern. (and are we there yet? Not necessarily, but we’re close and the more Noble Grape customers that find your forum, the more difficult it will become).

Part of the original agreement with my fellow beer club members was that discretion about this discount was important if it was to work. I think most will agree that an on-line forum is not discrete. We now risk alienating our many great customers who have supported us over the years and have not received a discount.

Anyway, once again, I just thought I should respond. Thank you again so much to all of you again who posted the positive comments about us. It is greatly appreciated.

We will be hopefully coming up with some exact guidelines in the near future. Obviously, this looks like the best place to start posting them.

Lastly, I will leave with a quote from one of the founders of modern home brewing:

“... to keep the hobby alive you need to support your local homebrew shop!”
-Charlie Papazian

Steven Haynes
Noble Grape

[derek]

Derek wrote: “Why would we even want to do that? They couldn't sell us malt for the price Robert does, so we (who as a group are likely their best customers) would be basically giving them a gift.
Patronizing NG is not "buying local", but I do it regularly anyway, because they're the best source of small quantities of just about everything.”

There are people out there that like the idea of supporting their local shop. The AHA in particular always urges people to support their local shop when possible instead of bypassing them.
...
What is your definition of buying local?

I do support your store. I'm in there regularly, and so is my wine-maker wife. But none of your product is locally sourced, so no, it's not "buying local".

Derek also said: “We have become large enough that we need to bulk buy.”

I’m not sure I understand this statement. I would understand if you said, ‘We have become large enough we deserve to bulk buy’ (I wouldn’t necessarily agree with it but I would understand it
Anyway, that’s why we have our bulk section. So you can “Bulk Buy” If pricing is an issue, let’s sit down and I’ll see what we can do.

The last time we bought bulk, I believe we brought in 3 pallets. You can't supply that from your bulk buy section.

[mr x]

I disagree with the comment that we changed this from a brew club to an online forum. I would say the forum has brought this club back to life. We do more events and involve more people, and most importantly to me, are encouraging and supporting more people brewing.

As far as the grain buys go, that will probably not be something you can reclaim. It's worked out well, and is somewhat of a fun event to get together for a few hours. But the real necessity of that wasn't price. It was selection. There was too much resistance to new products in the past. It's my money, and if you don't have what I want, I'm not going to settle for substitutes. As it stands now, that horse has left the barn, and isn't coming back. I think there is room for you guys organizing GB's on hardware and other odds and ends that would work for everyone, but that may not work out $$ wise. Hard to say.

One other point. We are all local businesses. I have a bottom line as well, and my shareholders are first in line. I like to support local business, but it's a two way street. As far as the discount goes, it doesn't matter to me.

[Jayme]

Thanks for the reply Steve.

A few comments. I think (but don't know for sure) when Derek referred to buying from Noble Grape as not buying local, he meant your products have not been locally sourced. As the majority of your products are imported from other parts of the country or another country entirely, purchasing from Noble Grape is not buying local but rather supporting a locally owned and operated business. *edit I see Derek already replied while I wrote this stating basically the same thing

As for my statement of offering a 10-15% discount to anyone, it cannot be summarized in one sentence. If you read on, you actually just reiterated my point somewhat. Discounts should only go to people who buy a lot. You can monitor that easily and do the math to figure out what the threshold must be so that not everyone gets a discount and your best customers do not get discriminated against because they do not belong to the club. This is how most businesses manage discounts. I'm not a fool - obviously if you gave everyone that came through the store a discount prices would have to go up... That's not rocket science! I personally think this is your most viable solution and it's proven to work by many other small businesses to actually increase revenue.

[SteveH]

Derek,
Thanks for the clarification on buying local. For the record, all of our Wine Kits and Festa Brew are manufactured in Canada, but admittedly not on Nova Scotia. (There are currently none available from NS). We do bring in local apple juice in the fall and honey is sourced locally as well. Just thought I'd point that out.
(One of the things we struggle with as a business is being mistaken for a franchise or big corporation and I sometimes feel the need to point out that we are small and local)

Anyway, we do appreciate the business everyone and thanks for the input.
As I mentioned, we are working on it

Steven Haynes

[bluenose]

Thanks to Chalmers, I'm now a card carrying Brewnoser

[OneEyedJack]

I have never asked for the discount because it seemed unofficial. Also, I'm not sure I want one. The way I have always seen my homebrewing endeavors is that I am buying 5 1/2 dozen beer for $30-$40. I am already saving ~$90 over NSLC retail.

[chalmers]

Hi Steve, thanks for your continuing responses, and for answering mine in particular.

Regarding the employee who had made some strange remarks, the member to whom it happened had contacted you personally (or Mark, I forget), and was sure to update his post with that good information when you responded to him. At that point, it was a "This employee had a poor attitude, but we know that management has dealt with it well" story. Which I think reflects well on NG.

And thanks for helping to hammer down the discount amount and products upon which it could be applied. Jayme's idea of awarding the top customers (Brewnosers or not) seems reasonable, though I understand that the shops are not linked, so sharing that info between them is difficult.

One last note, and it has been referred to in passing here: it is true (and a great thing!) that the Brewnosers have grown from the dozen or so members it had in years passed. In addition to more "Good Beer" advocates and events, there are more potential employees. I'm sure you would not argue that that is a bad thing. The same drivers that are leading to more BN members are exactly the same drivers that have allowed you to grow from one shop: more people realizing that most commercial beer is crap/over priced for what it offers / want to do some experimentation. If there were still only 12 BN members, I doubt there would be Noble Grape shops across the Maritimes. Not causation, but a strong correlation.

[Jayme]

If there were still only 12 BN members, I doubt there would be Noble Grape shops across the Maritimes.

A very good point. I certainly started buying far more equipment, supplies, etc. after BN influence - money that mostly went to Noble Grape and continues to.

[Dirt Chicken]

If there were still only 12 BN members, I doubt there would be Noble Grape shops across the Maritimes.

A very good point. I certainly started buying far more equipment, supplies, etc. after BN influence - money that mostly went to Noble Grape and continues to.

And not to mention that any friend/co-worker that expresses interest in brewing we send them to NG and know that they will be in the right direction to better beer, and a craft to build on.

[derek]

I disagree with the comment that we changed this from a brew club to an online forum. I would say the forum has brought this club back to life. We do more events and involve more people, and most importantly to me, are encouraging and supporting more people brewing.

Not only that, but while the forum has encouraged participation from far beyond the Halifax vicinity, almost all the active (non-vendor) Forum members are active Brewnosers, even if they don't get here often. Probably in large part due to our itinerant Church-of-the-Brewnoser preacher, Rev. Chalmers, making the circuit of the outer parishes.