Help understanding styles

[Celiacbrew]

So tonight I was out and I pretended I don't have celiac disease. Lots of fun and tried some new beer that weren't available before I had to stop drinking beer. So I had a saison years ago and I remember it being very mild and having a fruity aroma. Like a chemically orange wit (not for the wheat flavour but for the foam) Tonight's was way spicier. It tasted like someone dumped a pepper shaker into the glass. I get that this is a good example of the style just not my personal style. But what I'm wondering about is was that a spice addition in the saison tonight or was that he "clove" you read about in the yeast description. The next newish flavour was from garrison's saint peter. It has a unique flavour. But I'm not sure what the flavour is. Is it a yeast, a hop, the alcohol, some malt that I can't think of? What is the source of that distinct flavour. And lastly I saw that the bar had an old favorite, St.ambrois oatmeal stout. The beer used to be a favorite but after several years gluten free my tongue seems to have forgotten that it. There was a strong acrid taste that I didn't remember. Bitterness at the back of the tongue that I have never noticed before. What is the source of that acrid taste and how do I avoid it in a stout recipe? I assume it is a black malt but how dark can you go before you cross the line from bitter to acrid?

[GasMD30]

I can't help you with your questions, but I hope you're not waging any wars this morning!

[redoubt]

Celiacbrew,

The Garrison Saint Peter's is from the 2013 Brew Off Winner, Peter Welton. He posts on here as whistle pig. If he doesn't see this post, you might want to PM him. I'm sure he wouldn't mind answering some of your questions.

Also, Saint Peter's is considered a Belgian-Style Strong Ale (not Saison). BJCP guidelines for the style...
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style18.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here are the BJCP guinelines for a Saison to compare...
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style16.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope that helps clarify a bit!
-Keely.

[Celiacbrew]

Thanks Keely. I wonder if it is the esters in the Belgian Strong that give it that distinct taste. I've not drank a lot of Belgian beers so I don't have a clue what esters taste like. Seeing as I can't drink the store bought ones, maybe this is where I will have to spend my efforts while I learn how to brew my own beer. Those little yeasties can make some really neat flavours.

[redoubt]

Celiacbrew,

I don't know if you've gotten into any beer books yet, but there are plenty of good ones. If you're interested in Belgians, check this out...
http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/0937381 ... YIK6Y9EEQB" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We don't have this one in our collection yet, but we have lots of the other ones in the Classic Beer Style Series and they're quite good.


Keely.

[gm-]

Saisons can be somewhat "spicy", and sometimes peppercorns or other spices are added to them, but often it is just the saison yeast that is quite unique and gives off very interesting and refreshing flavours.

Belgian strong ales (and belgian beers in general) get their unique aroma and taste mostly from the yeast, it is quite distinct and you know almost right away if a beer is made with belgian yeast due to the esters that you smell and taste (quite fruitty, sometimes banana like, sometimes more spicy, depends on strains and fermentation temps). It is fun to brew those belgian styles and taste the difference between styles and yeast strains. My favourite belgian style to make is probably a dubbel, I try to make it once a year or so, but my ultimate beer experience is a well made quadruple, nothing else comes close

[chalmers]

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/catdex.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Belgian Strong, Category 18, should have some answers for you. The spice character you smelled and tasted was probably from phenols, given off by the yeast during the fermentation process.

Stout, Cat 13. As you said, that acrid taste and aroma would probably have come from the dark/black malt, perhaps used in too high percentage.

[Celiacbrew]

Thanks Keely, I will add that book to my list to buy. There are books for all the different styles out there. I always thought a porter was a porter, but there is a whole book of them in that series.

GM I see you like Belgian beers and you have a cucumber saison fermenting. How do you add cucumber? Did you put chunks in the boil?

Chalmers I read through the Stout beer styles descriptions and it looks like the taste is just the oatmeal style. I think I will need to avoid them until I get my beer legs back under me. I have fond memories of Dragon's Milk so I might start back with imperial stouts.

So much brewing homework to do, but 6G batches take so long to drink. I might have to invest in gallon jugs and make mini batches.

[GillettBreweryCnslt]

I've not drank a lot of Belgian beers so I don't have a clue what esters taste like.

Just to interject some science into this (as a former Chemistry/Forensic Science teacher)....

Esters are just a large class of chemical compound of which some are responsible for certain smells/flavours. In organic chemistry I used to dedicate a lab to creating some of these esters through specific chemical reactions, it was a always a good smelling chemistry lab.

Here are some examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester#List ... r_odorants" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is a good explanation of esters in beer:
http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/03/07/es ... r-brewing/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BAM! You've just been Scienced!

[Celiacbrew]

I've not drank a lot of Belgian beers so I don't have a clue what esters taste like.

Esters are just a large class of chemical compound of which some are responsible for certain smells/flavours. In organic chemistry I used to dedicate a lab to creating some of these esters through specific chemical reactions, it was a always a good smelling chemistry lab.

BAM! You've just been Scienced!

My highschool chem teacher confused the aromatic hydrocarbons for esters or maybe I confused them. Whatever, I don't know what happened. The point is we made banana during our "aromatic hydrocarbons" lab. It led to a lot of confusion in university when people referred to benzene as an aromatic hydrocarbon and I asked if thats the one that smells like banana.

[gm-]

GM I see you like Belgian beers and you have a cucumber saison fermenting. How do you add cucumber? Did you put chunks in the boil?

I am a big fan of belgian beers, best beer country in the world in my opinion. I am adding the cucumbers fresh to the secondary after fermentation has slowed down, if you have ever tried to boil cucumbers you will know why I didn't add them to the boil

[Celiacbrew]

GM I see you like Belgian beers and you have a cucumber saison fermenting. How do you add cucumber? Did you put chunks in the boil?

I am a big fan of belgian beers, best beer country in the world in my opinion. I am adding the cucumbers fresh to the secondary after fermentation has slowed down, if you have ever tried to boil cucumbers you will know why I didn't add them to the boil

I drink a lot of cucumber soda water so the idea of a really dry beer with a little cucumber backer sounds F-ing amazing. I will have to try this out. Thanks for the info.

[thehollowhead]

GM I see you like Belgian beers and you have a cucumber saison fermenting. How do you add cucumber? Did you put chunks in the boil?

I am a big fan of belgian beers, best beer country in the world in my opinion. I am adding the cucumbers fresh to the secondary after fermentation has slowed down, if you have ever tried to boil cucumbers you will know why I didn't add them to the boil

I just finished a cucumber saison where I added them to the boil. Actually worked like a charm!

[Celiacbrew]

http://byo.com/light-ale/item/1477-the- ... s-of-stout" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This article helped me understand what is going on with stouts and the flavours. I think I will need to start buying the classic styles books to get a deeper understanding of the various ingredients and styles.

[Celiacbrew]

So as an update to this thread, I have brewed a Saison (1.07OG) that was heavy on the wheat extract. I used WLP566 and have kept the fermenter hot. i made a little booboo last night and the space heater was pointed right at the beer. So I may have stopped fermentation at 1.02 from going too hot. If the yeast don't come back, I will dump in some dry yeast and try to finish it. But the cool thing is this thing smells like juicy fruit gum with a hint of cloves. So that peppery taste I tasted in the saison at the start of the month was definitely all yeast induced, just a slightly different taste from a different yeast. More pepper than this yeast's clove taste/smell. Yeast are awesome. The other thing is I think the taste I associate with belgian beer are the hot alcohols. I had a definite rubbing alcohol flavour, very very slight but there. The beer also gave my tongue some weird feelings like you would get from rubbing alcohol. Very neat. I can't wait to see where this thing goes as it conditions, I know the fusel alcohol taste won't go away, but I think I will still like the beer. Especially because now that I have tasted it and identified the flavours I was wondering about, I might chuck in some oranges or maybe some grapefruit zest.

And for the stout flavour I associate with acrid, I have a new possible suspect, chocolate malt. I was listening to Randy Mosher on the Beersmith podcast and he said that the acrid taste people don't like in stouts is often chocolate malt and that you should go darker to avoid it. Said something about the bad stuff getting burned off at the darker levels and that is why you don't see much caramel/crystal malts above 120L . So my current stout batch has roasted barley, we will see how it turns out. Smells really nice. I'm pretty excited.

There is so much to learn in this hobby. Sucks that I have to do it blind and can't just drink examples of styles or munch on some malt to see how it tastes. But each time I take my first sip of a batch it is all a surprise. Very fun indeed.

PS turns out I am not a fan of crystal 75 and what I thought an ESB tasted like is not what it actually tastes like. I'm going to have to clone Picaroons' bitter instead.