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Q:When isn't diacetyl diacetyl??
A:When it's toffee. More accurately; when it's Carastan malted barley from Baird's Malting.


Here's a PRIME fucking example of what I'm talkin' 'bout....

Let's set the record straight.... there's no diacetyl in Bad Apple APA. There is however, malt in it. Get your flavours straight before yapping on the fucking interwebz about 'em, you're leading innocent hipsters down a very lonesome path.... Personally, I call the beer a toffee bomb. In good fun of course.

I even bought a bag of Lite carastan to help with the Toffee flavor for the next batch. I'll be sure to send this guy a complimentary bottle for comparisons.
Let the Shit storm begin!

Yeah, in the past I was a little quick to yell diacetyl, when the flavour was most likely from crystal malt. Took me a while to get a feel for it. What site is that on?

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I am weak on my detection of diacetyl, so I mix up light diacetyl with toffee/caramel flavours. Which means, if a beer has light toffee/diacetyl flavours, I identify it as being one of the two but can't say which, and don't complain about it being an off flavour or dock it points for being out of style.

mr x wrote: Took me a while to get a feel for it. What site is that on?

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Looks like Untappd.

That would be my "handywork". I can take a ribbing. I've never professed to be a pro. I'm definitely no hipster, and hope I'm not leading any down a dark path! I just like beer, the culture around it, and the folks involved. I'll praise it when I like it, and mention when I don't like it. I try not to say anything too mean or derogatory, but sometimes, disappointment shines through. Like I said to you, Nash, on Untappd, and like X said, I've mistaken crystal in beer as diacetyl in the past, especially in a pale ale. They do have some similarities, but I know they're not the same. Perhaps I'm just a bit sensitive to it, or my tastebuds don't like it in some settings.

When I was at the beer fest last week, I liked both of BAB's beers. I chatted a bit with the guys, I brought a few brews home. I had a sample of the APA at our meeting on Tuesday. I didn't really like it / it didn't taste right. I thought it might have a hint of diacetyl. I had my own full bottle two days later. It tasted better, but still not right to my own taste buds. Honestly, it still tasted off - not just a personal taste preference.

No hard feelings, Nash. Like other trained folks in the business, you're probably a bit frustrated when amateur folks say something you don't agree with, or is just plain wrong. Still, though, just keep in mind I'm a fan, not a total-know nothing on the topic, a consumer, and doesn't the consumer's opinion and leanings play a pretty important role in the whole system?

So, whether or not something was actually off with the two bottles I tried, who knows. I just know they tasted a little more buttery than toffee / caramely, and that, despite some other alright traits, it just seemed like the beer was out of whack - that's why I didn't even rate it, as I thought what I had wasn't what it should be. Just figured our bottles were off for some reason. No insult meant to you or BAB, just saying one bottle didn't taste good to me.

On a related note, if crystal / carastan gives people the idea that something is off or at least not tasty in pale ales, what would be a better go-to to get some sweetness and balance? Or, if nothing else compares to it, how can it be best used to avoid confusion with off flavours?

As unfortunate as it is that you did not enjoy the beer, you have a valid question on detecting the difference. Maybe Greg or some of the BCJP judges will give us a lesson. I never used Carastan before, always used another brand C-30 typically. The strong toffee flavor is more prevalent with the Carastan for sure. At least you were willing to give your opinion which is important to me. I will continue to try and improve my beer for sure.
Jeff

No worries, man. Cheers back at ya. I won't hesitate to try more BAB in the future.

PEIBeerGuy wrote:On a related note, if crystal / carastan gives people the idea that something is off or at least not tasty in pale ales, what would be a better go-to to get some sweetness and balance? Or, if nothing else compares to it, how can it be best used to avoid confusion with off flavours?

I am definitely not as sensitive to diacetyl as others. My palate is certainly not as refined as PEIBG or Nash. However I have even more trouble distinguishing toffee from butterscotch. Just to add a bit of context to this, Bob "the brewer" from PEIBC was sitting in on our meeting and he had similar comments as PEI beer guy. Bob is no newbie to the industry.

Really looking forward to trying another bottle now. Hopefully we can get our hands on some before our next meeting.

PEIBeerGuy wrote:That would be my "handywork". I can take a ribbing. I've never professed to be a pro. I'm definitely no hipster, and hope I'm not leading any down a dark path! I just like beer, the culture around it, and the folks involved. I'll praise it when I like it, and mention when I don't like it. I try not to say anything too mean or derogatory, but sometimes, disappointment shines through. Like I said to you, Nash, on Untappd, and like X said, I've mistaken crystal in beer as diacetyl in the past, especially in a pale ale. They do have some similarities, but I know they're not the same. Perhaps I'm just a bit sensitive to it, or my tastebuds don't like it in some settings.

When I was at the beer fest last week, I liked both of BAB's beers. I chatted a bit with the guys, I brought a few brews home. I had a sample of the APA at our meeting on Tuesday. I didn't really like it / it didn't taste right. I thought it might have a hint of diacetyl. I had my own full bottle two days later. It tasted better, but still not right to my own taste buds. Honestly, it still tasted off - not just a personal taste preference.

No hard feelings, Nash. Like other trained folks in the business, you're probably a bit frustrated when amateur folks say something you don't agree with, or is just plain wrong. Still, though, just keep in mind I'm a fan, not a total-know nothing on the topic, a consumer, and doesn't the consumer's opinion and leanings play a pretty important role in the whole system?

So, whether or not something was actually off with the two bottles I tried, who knows. I just know they tasted a little more buttery than toffee / caramely, and that, despite some other alright traits, it just seemed like the beer was out of whack - that's why I didn't even rate it, as I thought what I had wasn't what it should be. Just figured our bottles were off for some reason. No insult meant to you or BAB, just saying one bottle didn't taste good to me.

My post wasn't a personal attack toward you, my apologies if I've offended you. Calling them like I see them and utilizing some of my fanfuckingtastic dry humour at the same time.

Not liking a product is one thing, to each their own. We all have our own opinion, nobody cares. Calling a product out as technically flawed is another thing. Admitting to having trouble identifying said flaw after the fact just worsens the matter. Obviously I cannot guarantee there was no diacetyl in your bottles, but I've got a c-note I'd lay on it as being Carastan. Apparently, I have confidence in Jeff's brewing and bottling technique.

I wasn't calling you a Hipster. I was hinting that comments like that can help start a generation of Bad Apple Butter-Bomb-haters, the kiddies can be very susceptible to what they read. You know, like the unmentionable breweries out there making garbage yet folks touting them as the stunner of the century. Poor, gullible bastards. It'll all sort it self out.

For anyone that has difficulty in distinguishing between crystal malt and diacetyl, I suggest buying some known diacetyl bombs and known toffee bombs for side by side tastings. You'll be separating the two like a champ in no time. Why not have official diacetyl-themed tasting/judging with a group? Nothing like round-table discussion to help sort things. Plus, you'll come to hate diacetyl so much that you'll be able to instantly pick up on it anywhere, any time

Cheers

PEIBeerGuy wrote:On a related note, if crystal / carastan gives people the idea that something is off or at least not tasty in pale ales, what would be a better go-to to get some sweetness and balance? Or, if nothing else compares to it, how can it be best used to avoid confusion with off flavours?

This is kinda like asking why the Germans didn't utilize a different yeast strain for Weizen fermentation with those nasty phenols. Or Lambic with sour character. It is what it is, it's Carastan malt. It has a very strong and very unique flavour. Some are going to hate it, some are going to love it. If you hate it, so be it.

When I first put the beer to my nose, I instantly call it a toffee bomb (and have a few times), same thing when I first taste it. But once I get into the beer, it becomes clear that it's very well-made and very well-balanced. Before long that toffee becomes part of the sum as a whole, the delicious whole. Mmmm, delicious wholes. Wait....

Don't get me wrong, I have a strong opinion about it as well, and I've laid it on Jeff more than once. I'd prefer that little brew be toffeeless but it is delicious as-is, and god-damned unique

Interesting discussion. I have a hard time telling the difference as well. Would be great if someone would lead a little workshop on off flavours. Reading about them is one thing but think it would be a huge help to have an experienced person point them out.

What's a good commercially available toffee bomb?

Is the Hellbay English Pale another example? I like it and thought it was fine, but I've heard complaints of toffee. Maybe I just like toffee?

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/diacetyl.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mr x wrote:Here's an interesting article:

http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/diacetyl.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Riveting!

NASH wrote:My post wasn't a personal attack toward you, my apologies if I've offended you. Calling them like I see them and utilizing some of my fanfuckingtastic dry humour at the same time.
Cheers

Now I need to learn to Dry Humour as well as Dry Hop!

Sandy

For myself, I pick up diacetyl in the mouthfeel first. I haven't had the BAB Pale Ale recently, but when we tried it, Gavin thought there was diacetyl but I disagreed due to the lack of slickness.

That said, I think if one follows the BJCP style guidelines closely, the toffee is still inappropriate for the American Pale Ale style. At the end of the day, it's a solid beer though so who really cares if it's a 10/10 on style.

Flavor: Usually a moderate to high hop flavor, often showing a citrusy American hop character (although other hop varieties may be used). Low to moderately high clean malt character supports the hop presentation, and may optionally show small amounts of specialty malt character (bready, toasty, biscuity). The balance is typically towards the late hops and bitterness, but the malt presence can be substantial. Caramel flavors are usually restrained or absent. Fruity esters can be moderate to none. Moderate to high hop bitterness with a medium to dry finish. Hop flavor and bitterness often lingers into the finish. No diacetyl. Dry hopping (if used) may add grassy notes, although this character should not be excessive.