Ethical/Organic brewing - noble endeavor or big scam

[mr x]

Yet organic beer can use non-organic hops. So what's the point? What does it mean to be organic? As far as I can tell, the goalposts are moved whenever convenient. I don't see how that's supposed to build consumer confidence in the system.

As far as the chemical use goes, it seems to be a NIMBY policy. You can use them, so long as you are pollution is somewhere else. YEAH organic certification!

I am assuming that organic certification allows the use of chemicals that wreak havoc where they are made, because I make those kinds of chemicals.

[GuingesRock]

That's pretty bland argument. In my line of work, making assumptions is what keeps people from being killed. That barrel of water might be sulfuric acid, so I think I better treat it as such until I know better. Whether you like it or not, life is based on assumptions. My mortgage is based on assumptions, so is tonight's dinner, etc...to say they are almost universally wrong is taking a very very narrow and pre-defined view of life.

Mr. X. That's funny. In my line of work it is extremely dangerous to make assumptions and work from them, it is crucial to investigate if there is doubt rather than using assumptions. I think you are describing exercising caution which is also an excellent policy. Usually when I apply for a mortgage they always ask me thousands of questions and quite rightly turn me down when they are done (who do you bank with please ). As for supper, unless you know the person you are making supper for, and their likes and dislikes, making assumptions about what they will like is a recipe for disaster. Some people came around for Christmas dinner two years ago, last minute, kind of joined in, can’t go wrong there, huge turkey, gravy, bacon, veg, sausage meat stuffing, trimmings etc. They were vegetarians

I shudder to think that rinsing out Starsan with city water could be a "safer" alternative. Sterile? Not hardly. Call up Halifax Water and ask them if their water is sterile. In any case if StarSan is not considered "organic" (I'd be surprised if it is), it would not be considered organic if you used it but rinsed it out before using the equipment. Organic certification doesn't work that way. You need to be able to prove you're organic from start to finish.

Derek, Maybe I should have said "virtually sterile". Hopefully municipal water is free of human pathogens. I had a debate about this on my last forum, and this thread isn't maybe the place to discuss. I don't think there is anything in municipal water that would cause problems in beer making, and I didn't experience any infections. Interesting to know that "organic certification doesn't work that way" as I really have no idea how it does work, except for what I hear from my wife who is an agricultural biochemist. I think I was trying to say that I wouldn't personally mind what was used to clean, providing it was rinsed away and not getting in my beer. Although I would prefer it if it wasn't causing problems to the environment.

[Jayme]

Yet organic beer can use non-organic hops. So what's the point? What does it mean to be organic? As far as I can tell, the goalposts are moved whenever convenient. I don't see how that's supposed to build consumer confidence in the system.

As far as the chemical use goes, it seems to be a NIMBY policy. You can use them, so long as you are pollution is somewhere else. YEAH organic certification!

I am assuming that organic certification allows the use of chemicals that wreak havoc where they are made, because I make those kinds of chemicals.

To my knowledge, hops do have to be organic (maybe it's dependant on what governing body is offering the certification). Yeast however, does not have to be organic. Reason being it is not available (though I think either Wyeast or White Labs are going to be offering yeast grown in an organic medium in the near future, possibly already). Personally I don't like the term organic. Mostly because of the point Chalmers made a while back - it means something different to everyone. And frankly, the biggest issue (IMO) is that you slap an organic certification on something and people automatically think it's healthy.

As far as harsh, non-organic cleaners go, I don't see how using them makes something a non-organic product unless they are making their way into the beer. That's more of an environmental sustainability debate than it is organic. So long as the ingredients (or apparently most of, depending on what entity you ask) are organic, the brewery could be the worst polluters ever but still be producing an organic beer. I agree with Derek in that organic and ethical are completely different terms.

[derek]

Yet organic beer can use non-organic hops. So what's the point? What does it mean to be organic? As far as I can tell, the goalposts are moved whenever convenient. I don't see how that's supposed to build consumer confidence in the system.

I agree that the goalposts seem to move, and that that leaves no confidence. In the particular case of beer, I'd say once you have organic grain, you can probably get away with anything else. Canadian law on "organic" is just slightly better than its definition of Canadian wine.

From the Atlantic Certified Organic product application form (the NS certifying body):

Products that contain at least 95% organic content may be labeled as “organic” and may use the Canadian logo

At least water is not considered in that percentage. The form does suggest that you need to make an effort to source 100% of your content organically. I guess, technically, if the malting house buys 95% organic grain, they can sell you organic malt — now the brewer has organic malt and can use 5% non-organic adjuncts. Go through enough middle-men and your true organic percentage could be pretty low. Your process is still supposed to be "organic", so only using approved chemicals. I have no idea if the 95% rule applies there.

[mr x]

Yeah, I've seen that 95% rule. And it brings up problems like hops, which from my understanding are an exception to the organic rule by the USDA (and then I guess you could still use another 5% of something non-organic...???). You can hammer them with all the Round-up and Vision you want, and still use them in your certified organic beer. That's my understanding anyway.

[jherbin]

We've recently installed some photos in the store of this year's hop crop. Thought I'd post my M.O. in this thread just to kick the nest. Yea, it includes the words 'sustainable' and 'local', so perhaps NSFW for some!

[mr x]

Collaborative as in you and Peter, or Bridge and another brewery?

As far as sustainable, I'm not sure what that means in a few regards. For instance, are you growing enough to run Bridge for the year?

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[mr x]

Turned.

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[jherbin]

Haha thanks for the photo turn, it looked fine on the phone. Collaborative as in myself - Lazy Acres Farmer/Bridge Brewer, and Peter at Bridge, and a 2nd larger brewery who has the capacity for the wet hops in the narrow window of time that they are ready. Sustainable as in using easily renewable waste for compost (vegetable/grass waste, composted manure, sea weed and sea minerals) and responsible crop management: no tillage, minimal mowing (alas, we do use gasoline), and no pest management/herbicides. Hops are a weed - grow them in a wild meadow and there's lots else for the bugs to eat! Been working well since 2007. We can't grow enough on an acre for bridge - since January we've brewed over 30,000 litres of grog - but someday we hope to provide more for the brewery on our own land.

[jherbin]

I think you missed the point - you are 'creating' and releasing less total CO2... I'm saying if the target FG is 1.010, and you bottle at 1.015. The CO2 generated by fermenting out those 0.005 gravity points will carbonate the beer. If you transfer the beer at 1.010, then add 0.005 gravity points BACK to the beer with corn sugar to bottle carb, you are creating more CO2.

No, I understood what you were getting at.

I was mostly joking, but the fact is, breweries can claim that they are capturing co2 and using it to force carb, or whatever method they say is reducing the amount of co2 going into the atmosphere, but at the end of the day, when the beer gets consumed, that co2 is going to get released.

We do prime and keg, and part of that is letting the farmhouse yeast work off any fermentation character we don't want trapped in the beer before we package, instead of packaging before the beer is even done fermenting and having to blow it off the kegs. Not an issue with certain yeasts, though ours produces lots of esters, some better left to air out. I do believe we are still creating less CO2 compared to force-carbing where you blow C02 through a bottom stone and out the top of a brite for hours on end to get the same volume in the beer. Lots more into the air that way. I believe the fineness of the bubble to be better in our method, holds up in bottle conditioned Belgian beers as well.

[mr x]

Sounds fairly sustainable as farms go. But what about labor/machinery costs if you try to expand. I'm still not convinced hops can be economically sustainable. Do you have processors now?

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