Ethical/Organic brewing - noble endeavor or big scam

[HPhunter]

I enjoyed the pictures. I'm into alt energy and modern waste diversion techniques with my lifestyle and I can appreciate the efforts put forth by Crannog in there brewing adventures. I'm with Robert when it comes to advertising things in a "Romantic" way to sound healthier, craftier, and environmentally better. It's beer, lets face it. It takes chemicals and a lot of water to make it. It's poison to our bodies. The most environmentally friendly thing to do is not make it at all. This is of course not realistic. We love beer to much. So lets leave the hippy stuff for the food people, and enjoy beer for what it is. A First-World Luxury!
As for Big Spruce I had a friend bring home a couple growlers. I enjoyed the stout very much. The Red was a little plain. I'm no great taster judge so I won't make uneducated claims of the beers qualities good or bad.

[GuingesRock]

The statement that beer is poison to our bodies is a controversial one. Hops are thought to have many ant-carcinogenic and anti-ageing health benefits and the cardiologists recommend "moderate" consumption of alcohol for cardiovascular protection. The cancer people don't like the cardiologists for saying that because alcohol can increase risk of some cancers but anything I have seen on that seems to be extrapolated from studies on alcoholics and people with excessive alcohol consumption. Maybe someone here knows of studies on cancer producing effects of "moderate consumption", but I haven't seen any. People who have fun and enjoy life seem to live longer too. I guess if you are throwing up in the morning with a nasty headache then that is toxicity, so I suppose it all depends.

[mr x]

Robert,

First of all, these folks don't "rant"

That was a general comment on the entire organic movement, not directly at Crannog.

As far as whether they are using the least harmful option, we are just taking somebody else's word for it. Have they considered all of their options at every stage, who knows......???

[chalmers]

X, your questions would be better answered by asking the owners/operators directly, rather than in some thread on some forum they'd have a slim chance of reading. brewery@crannogales.com

[mr x]

X, your questions would be better answered by asking the owners/operators directly, rather than in some thread on some forum they'd have a slim chance of reading. brewery@crannogales.com

I don't really care enough to ask. I know the types of places those chemicals are made in. Afaiac, the 'organic' movement is engaged in green washing, spin, and selective media releases. I'll move these posts into my other thread on that topic later.

Sent from Tapatalk 2, a prick of a company.

[jherbin]

Having worked on both conventional and organic farms I have seen more substance than 'spin' in the argument for more sustainable food production. That doesn't mean big companies haven't hopped on board with their marketing muscle to dupe consumers who are trying to make ethical decisions, but dont't try to paint the whole movement as a disingenuous gimmick. I've been through the certification process for my own property - it's not easy.

[GuingesRock]

Really interesting discussion. I enjoyed reading it (just read it for the first time due to the bump). Some amazingly skilled comments.

The purpose of a business primarily is to make money. The more that showing a concern for community and environment becomes a successful way to attract customers and boost sales the better. I agree it is to be encouraged, especially if it is a genuine concern. If a business is playing that game, I also agree it is good to make sure it is a genuine effort before backing them.

People mostly have selfish concerns when they buy organic. I do! I’m concerned about mass produced, chemical laden, genetically modified foods. It’s the difference between mega-swill and homebrew or mega-swill and something like the Crannog brewery makes.

From "Real Ale: the healthy and green option"...real ale has a lower carbon footprint than keg beer because it is served warmer. Refrigeration accounts for roughly 50% of the process costs at a large brewery (mostly due to chill filtering and cold conditioning of beer), and makes a significant contribution to the costs (and energy demand) on the retail side too.

[mr x]

Having worked on both conventional and organic farms I have seen more substance than 'spin' in the argument for more sustainable food production. That doesn't mean big companies haven't hopped on board with their marketing muscle to dupe consumers who are trying to make ethical decisions, but dont't try to paint the whole movement as a disingenuous gimmick. I've been through the certification process for my own property - it's not easy.

No doubt it's not easy, but I find the standards required to be organic somewhat troubling, ie, the allowance of man made harsh chemicals. Another question I would have of an organic brewery is how are they cleaning the kegs and brew house?

Sent from Tapatalk 2, a prick of a company.

[GuingesRock]

Steam? H2O2? (degrades into water and oxygen). Does it matter what is used from the organic perspective, providing everything is well rinsed after? What about the chemicals that are used to manufacture the kegs? How far do we need to take this. When I used “no-rinse” Starsan, I washed it all out of the kegs with tap water (which is sterile) before I kegged. I hated the thought of those chemicals in my beer.

Is this thread trying to discuss two separate topics…organic and green at the same time and mixing the two?

[mr x]

Steam? H2O2? (degrades into water and oxygen). Does it matter what is used from the organic perspective, providing everything is well rinsed after? What about the chemicals that are used to manufacture the kegs? How far do we need to take this. When I used “no-rinse” Starsan, I washed it all out of the kegs with tap water (which is sterile) before I kegged. I hated the thought of those chemicals in my beer.

Is this thread trying to discuss two separate topics…organic and green at the same time and mixing the two?

Steam? I don't think that will work.

H2O2? Yeah, H2O2 degrades to water and O2, if you don't mix it with anything, in which case, it creates chemical compounds. Not to mention the wholly un-organic method of making H2O2.

Well rinsed? As in down the drain?

How far do we need to take this? Exactly. How far removed is the mess from the end user to be able to say Organic.

You used treated water to rinse out kegs because you hated the thoughts of chemicals in your water? How do you think it got sterile?

At any rate, while I believe that it's fine to say that beer is brewed with organic ingredients, I don't believe in the concept of a modern organic brewery so long as man made chemicals are being used.

[chalmers]

As a chemist, I'd be remiss if I didn't scold the last couple of posters for your "chemical"-phobia. Water is a chemical. Oxygen is a chemical. Sulfuric acid is a chemical. Used in certain ways, any of these can be harmful to humans and the environment, or can be beneficial to certain steps to the brewing process. And all of these can be found in nature.
Natural does not equal safe or good, nor does man-made equal bad or harmful.

[jherbin]

How about an organic lambic? Probably feasible

[chalmers]

I don't really care enough to ask. I know the types of places those chemicals are made in. Afaiac, the 'organic' movement is engaged in green washing, spin, and selective media releases. I'll move these posts into my other thread on that topic later.

You say you don't care enough to ask, yet you keep asking questions here. Why not ask the people who can answer your questions, rather than some jokers on a forum who are going from third-hand information? Folks are making assumptions on their cleaning procedures, etc, but I don't think they actually have all of the answers.

And I'm curious what your definition of organic beer/brewery is. Is this a fair summary of your point, "An organic beer is made with organic ingredients, and without the use of harsh man-made chemicals"?

[GuingesRock]

As a chemist, I'd be remiss if I didn't scold the last couple of posters for your "chemical"-phobia. Water is a chemical. Oxygen is a chemical. Sulfuric acid is a chemical. Used in certain ways, any of these can be harmful to humans and the environment, or can be beneficial to certain steps to the brewing process. And all of these can be found in nature.
Natural does not equal safe or good, nor does man-made equal bad or harmful.

I agree. I just didn’t want a lot of phosphates in my beer. People say that chemicals are safe but it takes years and years to discover that they are in fact harmful. Many food additives, were simply added to foods in the sixties and seventies and definitely were not tested on animals or investigated in studies. We are, and remain human guinea pigs. As time goes on more and more food additives are banned. Look at the hydrogenation of fats (trans-fats). Trans-fats are now believed to be responsible for 25% of the heart disease in North America. Trans-fats do occur naturally but only in tiny amounts. I have always liked chemistry, it’s a fascinating subject and a large part of my training too, but you need to see it from the biological side of things as well as the industrial perspective, to avoid too much bias in either direction.

I was going to say something about the “manmade chemicals” comment too, but then I thought I would let Mr. X have it, because I thought he might be referring to chemicals that don’t occur naturally in the environment. If a man lights a fire, he will produce CO2 and H2O (products of combustion) and he’s made those chemicals. And yes, there are many extremely toxic naturally occurring chemicals.

I do think organic and green should be separate subjects to avoid confusion.

[mr x]

As a chemist, I'd be remiss if I didn't scold the last couple of posters for your "chemical"-phobia. Water is a chemical. Oxygen is a chemical. Sulfuric acid is a chemical. Used in certain ways, any of these can be harmful to humans and the environment, or can be beneficial to certain steps to the brewing process. And all of these can be found in nature.
Natural does not equal safe or good, nor does man-made equal bad or harmful.

Most, if not all of the chemicals used in breweries are not sourced from natural sources. The are made in the most unorganic and unnatural ways imaginable. Regardless of whether they are beneficial to the brewing process, where do they fit in the organic sphere?

[mr x]

How about an organic lambic? Probably feasible

That's most likely as close as you can get.

[mr x]

I don't really care enough to ask. I know the types of places those chemicals are made in. Afaiac, the 'organic' movement is engaged in green washing, spin, and selective media releases. I'll move these posts into my other thread on that topic later.

You say you don't care enough to ask, yet you keep asking questions here. Why not ask the people who can answer your questions, rather than some jokers on a forum who are going from third-hand information? Folks are making assumptions on their cleaning procedures, etc, but I don't think they actually have all of the answers.

And I'm curious what your definition of organic beer/brewery is. Is this a fair summary of your point, "An organic beer is made with organic ingredients, and without the use of harsh man-made chemicals"?

There aren't direct questions to Crannog, as I mentioned above. They are questions of an industry that maybe should be considered.

It's not so much what my definition is, I want to know what the industry definition is. People just stick labels on things now without any readily available and comprehensive documentation. Has it become so convoluted it has lost meaning?

Also, if you want to point out the jokers, I shall tell them to stop.

[GuingesRock]

Here's one.

[chalmers]

There aren't direct questions to Crannog, as I mentioned above. They are questions of an industry that maybe should be considered.

It's not so much what my definition is, I want to know what the industry definition is. People just stick labels on things now without any readily available and comprehensive documentation. Has it become so convoluted it has lost meaning?

Also, if you want to point out the jokers, I shall tell them to stop.

I understand these aren't questions to only Crannog, but if the reason you're asking them is to honestly get the answers, you'd direct them at people/organizations that can answer them. Asking the questions here is similar to a conspiracy theorist "just asking questions" and forming ideas based on a straw man version of reality. As I said, I know of no commercial organic brewery employees who frequent this forum, and so people who can answer your questions probably won't see your posts.

To be certified as an organic brewery, Crannog had to meet the standards of the certifying agency. These steps/rules are available to the public. Your definition of an organic beer or brewery is not available to the public, so I wanted to be sure I correctly knew your position before discussing it. Yours and mine might be very close. But, herein lies the problem, as different people will have different definitions of what steps and rules and chemicals should allowed in an organic beer/brewery. In an attempt to regulate it, there have been bodies formed to create guidelines and rules on the definition of organic. That might not meet my standard of what is organic, but it is organic, by definition. I understand you might have a problem with the entire investigation/certification process to be able to use the organic label, so why not contact them to raise these points, or research the steps involved with becoming certified? Or maybe you've done that, but that's not coming through.

The jokers are people who are making assumptions as to what other breweries are using for processes and chemicals. You can see them above. You're still misusing the word chemical, please stop.

[mr x]

This forum is here to openly discuss ideas. I don't see the conspiracy theory, just some critical points people might want to consider. If we aren't free to question the world around us on a public forum, it isn't much good.

While the steps and rules may be available to the public, suppose a brewery who wants to be organic decides to outsource keg cleaning with caustic. Where does 'organic' standardization even fit in to that situation? What does organic really mean? That's the question.

Making assumptions based on standard practices is pretty much how the world works. I'm going to assume the gun is loaded, etc....it hardly qualifies as being a 'joker'. And all I saw was verification that they were using one chemical in particular, although I may have missed something.

[GuingesRock]

Assumptions sadly are often the way things work. I find assumptions are almost universally wrong though. It's much more accurate to ask, than to make assumptions.

Quote (? Benny Hill)..."do not assume, as you will make an ass out of you and me."

[mr x]

That's pretty bland argument. In my line of work, making assumptions is what keeps people from being killed. That barrel of water might be sulfuric acid, so I think I better treat it as such until I know better. Whether you like it or not, life is based on assumptions. My mortgage is based on assumptions, so is tonight's dinner, etc...to say they are almost universally wrong is taking a very very narrow and pre-defined view of life.

At any rate, I see a discussion here, nothing more. And that's what this board is here for, unless that prick Jimmy changed the rules.

[derek]

As a chemist, I'd be remiss if I didn't scold the last couple of posters for your "chemical"-phobia. Water is a chemical. Oxygen is a chemical. Sulfuric acid is a chemical. Used in certain ways, any of these can be harmful to humans and the environment, or can be beneficial to certain steps to the brewing process. And all of these can be found in nature.
Natural does not equal safe or good, nor does man-made equal bad or harmful.

Most, if not all of the chemicals used in breweries are not sourced from natural sources. The are made in the most unorganic and unnatural ways imaginable. Regardless of whether they are beneficial to the brewing process, where do they fit in the organic sphere?

I'd put "ethical" and "organic" on entirely different axes. Something could be ethical and organic, either or neither.

I agree with Rob (I think) that a lot of food that's billed as "organic" is just a kind of green-washing. I'd rather buy local from a non-organic farmer who I know, than organic from the US or Western Canada. aiui, certified "organic" crops can't be grown with manufactured nitrate/potash/phosphate fertilizers — which are utterly safe in the end product — but the acceptable list at http://organicinputs.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is frightening: not because it's any less safe, but because many of those things are in practice not differentiable from the manufactured alternative. Consider vinegar: manufactured, pure, Acetic acid (5%) in water; or fermented beer, wine or cider infected with a wild bacteria? I have no doubt that natural vinegars can taste better, but health-wise it's exactly the same shell game as drinking city tap-water versus bottled water. And don't get me started on the scary drugs people will put in their bodies because they're "natural". Chew on this foxglove...

I shudder to think that rinsing out Starsan with city water could be a "safer" alternative. Sterile? Not hardly. Call up Halifax Water and ask them if their water is sterile. In any case if StarSan is not considered "organic" (I'd be surprised if it is), it would not be considered organic if you used it but rinsed it out before using the equipment. Organic certification doesn't work that way. You need to be able to prove you're organic from start to finish.

[mr x]

Also, from what I have read, organic beer doesn't require organic hops as they are hard to source. I s that an intelligent rationale? I think ozonated water may be a solution to some chemical use, but from what I know of professional breweries, you are going to need to use other stuff that is on a list of exceptions. Sure you may meet the guidelines, but the more I read, the less confidence I have in them.

[CorneliusAlphonse]

Are Reinheitsgebot beers allowed to use cleaning chemicals? Yes? Then organic beer can too.