Wayfarer's Ale - Thread not started by GRock (See OP)

[bluenose]

New Scotland in Pictou - not sure the history here.

I heard it was financial troubles... like one of the owners might have been printing shares... so I'm tole...

[Bryan]

Only other one I can think of is Highland Classic in Cape Breton, but that may have just been a brand that Keith's or Molson had put out that didn't work.

I know a bit of the history of this Brewery... it was its own entity. I believe they started WAY to big, and I've heard from my parents' generation that the beer was awful. Again, they were trying to compete directly with the big breweries, and their product was no good. I think this was in the late 80s / early 90s. I have a Newspaper article from back when they opened, I'll see if I can scan it in / take picture of it.

[BobbyOK]

Only other one I can think of is Highland Classic in Cape Breton, but that may have just been a brand that Keith's or Molson had put out that didn't work.

I know a bit of the history of this Brewery... it was its own entity. I believe they started WAY to big, and I've heard from my parents' generation that the beer was awful. Again, they were trying to compete directly with the big breweries, and their product was no good. I think this was in the late 80s / early 90s. I have a Newspaper article from back when they opened, I'll see if I can scan it in / take picture of it.

This makes sense. I can remember when it came out - and I know I got a taste of it at some point, but I don't think I was even 10 when it was around, so it must have been mid-80s. I don't recall it being any different from the rest of the swill available at the time.

[IanWatson]

I've been lurking the forum for a little while and this post (or rather, the reponses) have spurred me to finally chime in.

I seriously can't believe the indignation shown by some members of this forum. These guys want to open a new brewery? Great! Good for them! Not satisfied by the information they're giving? Don't invest.

Yes, 20bbls is a fairly large setup by NS standards, but I also think it's a prudent decision. When you're starting a business you really should plan for your first five years of operation. It costs marginally more to oversize your system at startup, and will save a ton of extra costs and headaches over starting with a small system and then later having to upgrade. How many breweries have we seen now in Atlantic Canada that were forced to upgrade their brewhouse after only a year of operation? Again, that's wasted money and wasted time/effort that distracts from supplying your customers with a consistent supply of good beer. That route is understandable/necessary for those brewery owners who have few resources and need to bootstrap themselves into a successful operation, but if you could raise the resources up front to properly size your operations, why wouldn't you do it? Everything I've read about starting a brewery is that (for your sanity) a 10bbl brewhouse is the minimum you should consider, with 15bbls being even better.

And yes, it does seem like these guys are giving attention to the money rather than just the beer, but we have to remember that a brewery is a BUSINESS. There is nothing inherantly different about a microbrewery operation than a widget factory or Jim's Flooring Store. We shouldn't romanticize breweries or attach some sort of mythical nobility to them. Focusing on the financials does not make you some capitalist Wall Street pig out to suck the soul out of the world, it makes you a good business owner. We, as homebrewers, have the luxury of indulging in flights of beer fancy. But as a business owner you have staff, customers, banks, shareholders, and your family all depending on you. The history of humankind is littered with the corpses of businesses where the owner treated it like their hobby rather than a business.

I wish these guys all the best and I look forward to tasting their beers and having even more options within a biking distance of my house.

[jacinthebox]

I too wish good luck to anyone that wants to start up a brewery....as a few brewnosers know, it's a ton of work to brew great beer...Lot's of love for the craft

who is the brewmaster again? I think I missed it...what styles of beer will they be putting out?

Although I am not in a position to invest in any venture involving beer/wine/liquor...conflict of interest, but I support good beer via consumption

[mcgster]

I've been lurking the forum for a little while and this post (or rather, the reponses) have spurred me to finally chime in.

I seriously can't believe the indignation shown by some members of this forum. These guys want to open a new brewery? Great! Good for them! Not satisfied by the information they're giving? Don't invest.

Yes, 20bbls is a fairly large setup by NS standards, but I also think it's a prudent decision. When you're starting a business you really should plan for your first five years of operation. It costs marginally more to oversize your system at startup, and will save a ton of extra costs and headaches over starting with a small system and then later having to upgrade. How many breweries have we seen now in Atlantic Canada that were forced to upgrade their brewhouse after only a year of operation? Again, that's wasted money and wasted time/effort that distracts from supplying your customers with a consistent supply of good beer. That route is understandable/necessary for those brewery owners who have few resources and need to bootstrap themselves into a successful operation, but if you could raise the resources up front to properly size your operations, why wouldn't you do it? Everything I've read about starting a brewery is that (for your sanity) a 10bbl brewhouse is the minimum you should consider, with 15bbls being even better.

And yes, it does seem like these guys are giving attention to the money rather than just the beer, but we have to remember that a brewery is a BUSINESS. There is nothing inherantly different about a microbrewery operation than a widget factory or Jim's Flooring Store. We shouldn't romanticize breweries or attach some sort of mythical nobility to them. Focusing on the financials does not make you some capitalist Wall Street pig out to suck the soul out of the world, it makes you a good business owner. We, as homebrewers, have the luxury of indulging in flights of beer fancy. But as a business owner you have staff, customers, banks, shareholders, and your family all depending on you. The history of humankind is littered with the corpses of businesses where the owner treated it like their hobby rather than a business.

I wish these guys all the best and I look forward to tasting their beers and having even more options within a biking distance of my house.

I think the reason for the indignation is founded... posting about opening a brewery and looking for investments on a forum for beer nuts INVITES questions about your setup and brewing process.

They shut down all questions about their setup, which tells me that they wanted to use the forum as free advertising for their offering. So.. if its not about the beer and just about the money then they should expect questions about their financial plans and business...

So if its strictly about the business and they wanted free advertising they should find another venue.. the whole point of posting anything on a forum is to invite discussion and debate.. This forum would be pretty useless if people didn't express differing opinions on how to do things.

[AllanMar]

Your right. This is a business, and it is not indignant to scrutinize an investment on a discussion forum?

This doesn't appear to be being treated as beer or a business. Have you seen a business plan?

There is nothing inherantly different about a microbrewery operation than a widget factory or Jim's Flooring Store.

Jim's flooring store is looking for investors, their plan is to have capacity to produce more flooring than the other flooring stores. (I would have serious concerns about this plan as well. ie. What kind of flooring? What will the quality be? Who are you marketing to?)

[Jimmy]

Your right. This is a business, and it is not indignant to scrutinize an investment on a discussion forum?

This doesn't appear to be being treated as beer or a business. Have you seen a business plan?

There is nothing inherantly different about a microbrewery operation than a widget factory or Jim's Flooring Store.

Jim's flooring store is looking for investors, their plan is to have capacity to produce more flooring than the other flooring stores. (I would have serious concerns about this plan as well. ie. What kind of flooring? What will the quality be? Who are you marketing to?)

That's right.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[GuingesRock]

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[gm-]

I am afraid that any information on the types of flooring, who is making the flooring, or if Jim has any experience in making flooring with the largest flooring making setup in the region has to be disclosed.

But look at all those shiny tax benefits!!

[Jimmy]

Jim's flooring. will you be doing beer grain acrylic floor tiles? That would be awesome.

ps. How much would it be for a 20 bbl BIAB bag?

I'm afraid I can't disclose this information.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[GuingesRock]

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[canuck]

Jim's flooring. will you be doing beer grain acrylic floor tiles? That would be awesome.

ps. How much would it be for a 20 bbl BIAB bag?

I'm afraid I can't disclose this information.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Ahhhh, c'mon......am I to invest my hard earned dollars without knowing anything?? Oh nevermind, take my money!

[canuck]

I've been lurking the forum for a little while and this post (or rather, the reponses) have spurred me to finally chime in.

I seriously can't believe the indignation shown by some members of this forum. These guys want to open a new brewery? Great! Good for them! Not satisfied by the information they're giving? Don't invest.

Yes, 20bbls is a fairly large setup by NS standards, but I also think it's a prudent decision. When you're starting a business you really should plan for your first five years of operation. It costs marginally more to oversize your system at startup, and will save a ton of extra costs and headaches over starting with a small system and then later having to upgrade. How many breweries have we seen now in Atlantic Canada that were forced to upgrade their brewhouse after only a year of operation? Again, that's wasted money and wasted time/effort that distracts from supplying your customers with a consistent supply of good beer. That route is understandable/necessary for those brewery owners who have few resources and need to bootstrap themselves into a successful operation, but if you could raise the resources up front to properly size your operations, why wouldn't you do it? Everything I've read about starting a brewery is that (for your sanity) a 10bbl brewhouse is the minimum you should consider, with 15bbls being even better.

And yes, it does seem like these guys are giving attention to the money rather than just the beer, but we have to remember that a brewery is a BUSINESS. There is nothing inherantly different about a microbrewery operation than a widget factory or Jim's Flooring Store. We shouldn't romanticize breweries or attach some sort of mythical nobility to them. Focusing on the financials does not make you some capitalist Wall Street pig out to suck the soul out of the world, it makes you a good business owner. We, as homebrewers, have the luxury of indulging in flights of beer fancy. But as a business owner you have staff, customers, banks, shareholders, and your family all depending on you. The history of humankind is littered with the corpses of businesses where the owner treated it like their hobby rather than a business.

I wish these guys all the best and I look forward to tasting their beers and having even more options within a biking distance of my house.

First off, welcome to the forum.

Yes, brewing is a business......very much so. But just as much as brewing is a business, so is being an investor in one. Investors don't readily hand over their hard earned dollars unless they see something special in the making and a financial gain to be had. And typically, investors don't hand over their money without doing their due diligence and seeing if it's an investment worthwhile. Unfortunately in this case, you can't do your due diligence as there is next to no information on what you're actually investing in.......other than a "brewery".

Also as a note, as a small brewery owner myself, I wish nothing but success for every start up brewery here in the Maritimes.

[Jimmy]

Also as a note, as a small brewery owner myself, I wish nothing but success for every start up brewery here in the Maritimes.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with this statement. We all want to see a brewery succeed, but we want to see it succeed on quality product and not just good marketing and widespread distribution.

[canuck]

Also as a note, as a small brewery owner myself, I wish nothing but success for every start up brewery here in the Maritimes.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with this statement. We all want to see a brewery succeed, but we want to see it succeed on quality product and not just good marketing and widespread distribution.

Absolutely Jimmy, and I think that goes without saying. The craft beer industry is vibrant here in the the Maritimes with a lot of great beers and breweries. But even though it's a growing market doesn't mean you open up a craft brewery and automatically survive. Like you said, you need a quality product. And IMHO, your product IS your marketing!

[GuingesRock]

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[Jimmy]

There's one thing though. They aren't asking you for money to give to them, they are asking people to spend with them. They have from what I can make out jointly put in about half (don't quote me on that). As far as I know (from Mark's post above) the main ones have put in over $100,000. They have more interest in making this work out that anyone. The passion and dedication behind it have been huge. I understand though that sometimes it is useful to take something to the extreme in order to illustrate a point.

As I've said before, I'm sure they will succeed regardless of the product they produce..it's already been proven with other craft breweries in Atlantic Canada.

I believe a lot of thought has been put into the areas where information is apparently lacking. Some areas offer many options and final decisions are yet to be made. None of the issues as far as I can see are insurmountable, or barriers to success.

They may have plans in place that they believe are sufficient, but others may not. Let's just say that they think Brewer "X" is a fantastic brewer to do consulting..well, maybe brewer "X's" beer is absolute shit in my mind..would I want to invest in this brewery? No. Sure, they are consulting with a "qualified" brewer, however, one persons definition of qualified can be quite different from someone elses.

Bottom line - if you're investing in the brewery for monetary reasons, sure, it will probably be fine. If you're investing in the brewery because you'd like to be part of a fantastic brewery, then I don't think there's enough information for someone to make that decision...there's just no proof of quality.

[canuck]

They aren't asking you for money to give to them, they are asking people to spend with them.

If they are asking people to invest their hard earned money on them, for the love of Pete at least give them some sort of actual and informed information to do so. No business plan, no mention of any kind of what beers will be produced, etc. I'm sorry, but as a brewery owner myself, I just can't comprehend the rationale. At the end of the day, I wish them the best of luck, but if I was an investor I'd have many unanswered questions.

[IanWatson]

To be clear, I'm not criticizing or complaining about anyone asking for more information. I would want to know more too if I was investing money, and I wouldn't mind knowing more just to satisfy my curiosity. It's certainly fair to ask questions and/or state that in no uncertain terms will you not front a penny without hearing more. What really got my goat was a number of posts in here that had the tone of, "how DARE they think they can be successful" and, "how DARE they try to make money from something as noble as beer". If these guys think they can make a go of it, let them. I'll be one of the first in line to try their beer, and if it's crap I'll tell my friends (and so will you) and it will most likely fail, but it's not up to us to be armchair brewers and predict their doom.

[Celiacbrew]

To be clear, I'm not criticizing or complaining about anyone asking for more information. I would want to know more too if I was investing money, and I wouldn't mind knowing more just to satisfy my curiosity. It's certainly fair to ask questions and/or state that in no uncertain terms will you not front a penny without hearing more. What really got my goat was a number of posts in here that had the tone of, "how DARE they think they can be successful" and, "how DARE they try to make money from something as noble as beer". If these guys think they can make a go of it, let them. I'll be one of the first in line to try their beer, and if it's crap I'll tell my friends (and so will you) and it will most likely fail, but it's not up to us to be armchair brewers and predict their doom.

Didn't they bend the truth about their qualifications early on in this discussion. Money is serious business and being less than 100% honest when asking for it tends to get people riled up. I was looking at my rrsp account to see if I have some mad money when that post about them having brewing chemists happened. I can understand why people aren't showing the love to these guys.

[canuck]

. What really got my goat was a number of posts in here that had the tone of, "how DARE they think they can be successful" and, "how DARE they try to make money from something as noble as beer"

No disrespect, but I've read the entire thread once again and I'm not sure where you're coming from. All I've read in this thread is members asking legitimate questions that haven't been answered. If I've missed it, my apologies in advance, but I haven't seen any posts in this thread that take on the "how dare they" theme you suggest.

[mcgster]

+1 to what canuck said.. i reread the thread as well to see if i, or anyone else, was out of line and i really don't see anything other that questions i would ask of any business.

[AllanMar]

There's one thing though. They aren't asking you for money to give to them, they are asking people to spend with them. They have from what I can make out jointly put in about half (don't quote me on that). As far as I know (from Mark's post above) the main ones have put in over $100,000. They have more interest in making this work out that anyone. The passion and dedication behind it have been huge. I understand though that sometimes it is useful to take something to the extreme in order to illustrate a point.

I believe a lot of thought has been put into the areas where information is apparently lacking. Some areas offer many options and final decisions are yet to be made. None of the issues as far as I can see are insurmountable, or barriers to success.

Now if it were a group of people who were asking for a fortune, and not putting their money where their mouths were, and not giving any details, then there would be more reason for huge amounts of scepticism.

Please don't take my word for it on amounts of money they have put in. Check first. I don't know for sure, but that's what I think is correct.

If they were looking for people to spend money with them, then this would be more of a co-op brewery. Investors would have more say in how their money is to be used.

This is the problem. The assumptions you made about the investment have not been clarified (atleast some of them have been disclosed). The #'s Mark came up from above were solely based on the shares held by them and the valuation they assigned (by asking for $1000/share for 1000 shares), it in no way demonstrates they put this much money in. Perhaps you know something I don't but as far as I can tell we have no idea how much they have invested. I can't imagine its 100's of thousands (per founder) otherwise they wouldn't need so much money from investors.

I think many of the points here have been why this is a questionable investment, not a questionable idea/goal (everyone is all for more breweries).

[GuingesRock]

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