Critical Beer Tasting & Cicerone Program & BJCP

[GuingesRock]

Keith was talking today about designing your own beers whether they turn out to be good or bad, and I agree that's a good thing.

I listened to this Randy Mosher podcast tonight and it reminded me of Keith's comments on designing your own beer. Mosher says you have to be good at tasting beer to make good beer.

I've never figured out what astringency is. I even just printed off fault flash cards from the BJCP web site. I still don't know the difference between a harsh bitterness or a lot of bitterness and astringency. The only clue that rings any bells is "reminiscent of grape skins". I read Moshers book before and had another look at it tonight. Is there an astringent beer I can pick up somewhere so I can learn.

Any tips on critically tasting both your own beer and commercial beer and moving beyond the "I don't like it/I want another" type of assessment, which is where I seem to be stuck.

[LiverDance]

take the bjcp course.

[LeafMan66_67]

Any tips on critically tasting both your own beer and commercial beer and moving beyond the "I don't like it/I want another" type of assessment, which is where I seem to be stuck.

With an engineering type mind, I find it very difficult to describe a beer; to me it's "I like it" or "I dislike it". I'm sort of stuck there too. There are some positives and some flaws I can pick out, but it has taken practice. Astringency is one I think I can pick out. Think of a very strong cup of tea and how that tea feels like it will peel the enamel right off your teeth. That's how I think of astringency.

[GuingesRock]

take the bjcp course.

Brian, I'm Interested to know. Has the beer you brew improved a lot since you did that course?

Nash said to me once that "drinkability is the key". Maybe all you need to be able to do is identify whether you like a beer or don't like it. For your own beer figure out as you go along what you like. If you buy a beer and don't like it and won't buy it again, it's the brewers problem to figure out why their beer doesn't have drinkability. No need to rack your brains figuring out what's wrong with it, move on and try something else.

Derek, thanks! I think that will help.

[GAM]

I tend to agree with Derek and Greg. I assume Derek has enough "taste" and willingness to experament that he maked some good beer and some not so good beer.

Greg is not in the same place as he has been trained and worked with many pros.

I started down the bjcp road and discovered I didn't want to work that hard for a hobby. Time is a valuable resorce to me and I have many other places to waist it.

Just my thoughts and more power to the judges for the efford they put in to it.

Sandy

[GuingesRock]

I think the BJCP is a very good thing. I'd like to do it. Would be easier if I lived in Halifax ...just I found Brian's four word response "take the bjcp course" a bit curt, and I was trying to drag a bit more out of him. That said, sometimes it helps to state the obvious. Taking the Cicerone course is another option if there is one available.

[GAM]

Yep either program will develop the taste palet. If someone can answer the "off flavour" question and provide examples I'd be up up to organize an informal tasting. It would be nice to have an experanced tasted to lead the exercize.

Sandy

[GuingesRock]

That's a great idea Sandy. I'd like to come if you can organize it.

I think I would like to do the Cicerone Program: http://cicerone.org/canada" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just sent a PM to Jeff (Brewnoser)

Might even be possible to organize something in the valley if there were enough Valley People interested ...and there might be. I know a few non-Brewnosers that I think would be interested.

[GAM]

If we can get the "samples I'm in. That reminde me I was talking about a BN pub tour.

Sandy

[LiverDance]

I've never taken any course on beer, but I figure the best would be the bjcp as it gets into all aspects of the beer and it's make up. I don't really know anything about the cicerone program, that maybe good as well. If i want a beer reviewed I just get Chris to give me the run down on it but mostly I go off my experiences as a home brewer and creating some really nasty beers along the way. Who is this curt guy anyway?

[chalmers]

There's no BJCP "course", though private companies or individuals offer study groups, in order to better your chances of passing the exam. Brewnoser and Tracy from Garrison were kind enough to donate their time to help us practice our tasting and filling out beer scoresheets.

Here is the BJCP Exam Centre, with most of the resources named to do well on the exam: http://www.bjcp.org/examcenter.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is the Study Guide for the Exam: http://www.bjcp.org/docs/BJCP_Study_Guide.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Off-flavour flash cards: http://www.bjcp.org/docs/OffFlavorFlash.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (which I think GRock might already have)

Setting up an off-flavour tasting is a great idea (we did it during our BJCP study group), but not something I have time for anytime soon.

[GAM]

I am just not intrested in the course or exam. I am intrested in the slow progress of learning to taste (this goes for food aswell). I feel I need a support group to use words to describe tastes and smells. I realy don't think I can learn this alone with confidence.

Sandy

[chalmers]

Great! There's room for all interests in beer.
I posted those links for everyone.

If you want to pursue this, I'd suggest starting (or continuing) by tasting your next beer. Don't just drink it, taste it. It might help to take notes on it. Think about the Aroma, the Appearance, the Flavour, the Mouthfeel, whatever else you'd like to note. No wrong answers, just think and/or write about each part of the beer. Write for yourself, don't do it to show us. Because it IS for you, not anyone else. Don't worry about using the "proper" terms, just use the words that come to mind when you smell or taste or feel the beer.

And then the next meeting, or in the forum, if you have questions, post them up, and you'll get some answers (probably some of them will be correct!) as to what the flavours might be, and how to fix or enhance them. Hopefully.

Seem reasonable?

[LeafMan66_67]

I found the "checklist" style judging form to be helpful in giving prompts for tastes etc.

[GuingesRock]

Cicerone Canada: http://cicerone.org/ca/canada" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First you have to do the certified beer server, then you can do the Cicerone. The Certified beer server online course and multiple choice exam is $199, gives you a couple of goes at the exam. They recommend you do the TIPS course as well as their course, as the TIPS info is required for the certified beer server exam.

I paid $40 for the TIPS course and exam, and started doing the course. It’s really interesting. It’s a 3 hour course with a multiple choice online exam and a certificate. I’m doing the On-Premise course. Teaches you how to deal with drunken customers among many other things.

TIPS Alcohol Training & Certification

Leading The Way in Responsible Alcohol Service Training For Over 30 Years...

TIPS (Training for Intervention ProcedureS) is the global leader in education and training for the responsible service, sale, and consumption of alcohol.

Our TIPS Alcohol website offers online TIPS alcohol training for both on and off premise needs as well as for those in the casino gaming industry. You may visit the TIPS On-Premise course page if you work in a bar or restaurant, the TIPS Off-Premise course page if you work in a liquor, grocery or convenience store or the TIPS Gaming-course page if you work in a casino, riverboat, cruise ship or gaming establishment. The course pages answer specific questions about the TIPS course in your industry. http://www.tipsalcohol.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GAM]

I'd suggest starting (or continuing) by tasting your next beer.
Seem reasonable?

Done!

And more than reasonable. Comments were not directed at any one post just came after yours.

Sandy

[chalmers]

Personally, I feel like the Cicerone(R) program is geared at folks interested in a career post-brewing (serving, selling, etc), whereas the BJCP is geared at the pre- and during-brewing process. I am probably wrong, and am ready to hear that, but this is my understanding. Choose accordingly.

I feel the Certified Cicerone(R) exam is quite expensive (let alone any training you may employ), a concern for some (me), especially if you have few aspirations of making money from your Certified Cicerone(R) designation.

[GuingesRock]

Chris, The beer once it has been brewed, how it tastes, how it compares to other beers, how to describe it and appreciate it, how it fits into a style, detailed knowledge of all the styles, what's right about the beer, what's wrong about it, what characteristics does it have, what food would it pare with. Its journey after it has been brewed ...all that stuff interests me, and it's all in the Cicerone.

[chalmers]

Chris, The beer once it has been brewed, how it tastes, how it compares to other beers, how to describe it and appreciate it, how it fits into a style, detailed knowledge of all the styles, what's right about the beer, what's wrong about it, what characteristics does it have, what food would it pare with. Its journey after it has been brewed ...all that stuff interests me, and it's all in the Cicerone.

Excellent! It sounds like that's the right program for you (and many others). Not for me (at least the formal training/exam part of it). I'm more interested (and still need practice with) recipe development and brewing techniques, which is where I found the BJCP helped a lot. Having said that, the BJCP references above are free for anyone, and will certainly help in your Cicerone(R) studying.

There will be a Certified Cicerone(R) exam held in Halifax sometime in 2015. If that is of interest to you, then you won't have to go too far to take it.

[GuingesRock]

If you want to pursue this, I'd suggest starting (or continuing) by tasting your next beer. Don't just drink it, taste it. It might help to take notes on it. Think about the Aroma, the Appearance, the Flavour, the Mouthfeel, whatever else you'd like to note. No wrong answers, just think and/or write about each part of the beer. Write for yourself, don't do it to show us. Because it IS for you, not anyone else. Don't worry about using the "proper" terms, just use the words that come to mind when you smell or taste or feel the beer.

And then the next meeting, or in the forum, if you have questions, post them up, and you'll get some answers (probably some of them will be correct!) as to what the flavours might be, and how to fix or enhance them. Hopefully.

Seem reasonable?

Randy Mosher would like what you said there. Do you think a person will get far doing that on his own? I echo what Sandy said … “I feel I need a support group to use words to describe tastes and smells. I really don't think I can learn this alone with confidence”.

The group idea, with novices and experienced tasters, seems like a good idea to me. It would be a really enjoyable exercise. Not just to cover faults, but also attributes and style characteristics as well. Wine tasting courses are commonplace (I think) ...never heard of a beer tasting course though.

[chalmers]

Before tasting in a group, you should really taste on your own. Take the initiative to get started tasting, so that you know what it entails.

You'll see I also mentioned then taking your notes to the group (in person or on here) for feedback, so I am not recommending doing it all in a vacuum.

We can set up a beer tasting course, I'm sure there are some BJCP folks (or not, but equally or more talented) who would be willing to run them, but I am not that person, unfortunately. At least not during the summer.

[GuingesRock]

That sounds good. Thanks. Will start tasting also.

[GuingesRock]

ps. It could be done online also. Might be fun. Once or twice month, we could review a beer available commercially. Experienced tasters and novices alike could post notes and compare.

[GAM]

Mark

Pick a beer and we can start. Others can join in as they feel if they want.

Sandy

[GuingesRock]

Mark

Pick a beer and we can start. Others can join in as they feel if they want.

Sandy

Done ...Here: http://www.brewnosers.org/forums/viewto ... f=5&t=6687" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;